Raw footage - episode 7-enhanced-51p
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[00:00:00] Richard: My guest today is Justin Barney, currently the CRO of ThousandEyes, a Cisco company. Justin has broad leadership experience from private equity in Silicon Valley to startups to global sales in large enterprise companies.
[00:00:15] I'm excited to learn from Justin today. So Justin, welcome.
[00:00:19] Justin: Hey, thank you, Richard. I am very excited to be here.
[00:00:22] Richard: Absolutely. So we have talked about, uh, today kind of digging into, , building a CRO career path. So you've had a varied career and lots of, experience.
[00:00:35] And one thing I've learned from you is you kind of had a solid sense of knowing you wanted to be a CRO. So when was that? And tell me a little bit about kind of what your thought process was.
[00:00:45] Justin: Yeah, sure. It was a bit of a journey early on. I actually started my career on wall street. Um, so after, uh, university at university of Colorado, go buffs.
[00:00:53] I went to New York, and was an investment banker for a few years and then a private equity investor, uh, in, in Manhattan. In New York City on Wall Street and it was amazing, , but that's when the internet was born. So this was late 90s, and then from there I went to grad school to get an MBA and that's really when I fell in love with technology.
[00:01:12] And so I made the decision, , during my two years in grad school that I wanted to switch and move from the finance industry to technology because I just loved technology and I loved networking. , so coming out of grad school, I took a marketing job at a startup called Netscaler. 2001 was not a great time to be finding a job, but I got one and that's when I started really learning about how technology companies are built and how companies are built, , in general.
[00:01:39] I started working with the sales guys there and I started saying, Hey, I really like what they do and I think I could do what they do and I think I'd be pretty good at it. , so I had an opportunity , to move into sales. And that's really when I fell in love with sales. , as I started to make my customers successful, , I got a tremendous amount of joy out of it.
[00:01:59] I had. Customers who got promoted because they adopted the technology I was selling. I had customers say, I used to be on calls at night, , away from my family because the old technology we were using was causing downtime. , and now with your technology, you've given me time back with my family. And that to me, Was incredibly rewarding.
[00:02:20] And then I had an opportunity to move into leadership. And that's when I under, started understanding about how you build a team and how you drive a team to accomplish even greater goals. And from then on, I knew that someday I wanted to be a CRO cause I wanted to do it globally because it is so much fun to do business all around the world in different areas and cultures and languages. , it's incredibly challenging. It's challenging every day. There's really not a dull day, , when you're a CRO. . That was the path I knew I wanted to be on. , and here I am,
[00:02:53] Richard: You've made it, , more than made it. Of course, , you've got lots of, , lots of great roles and experience we'll dig into in our short time today.
[00:03:00] But before we go there, I'd love just kind of, as you reflect on your career and you've seen peers and colleagues, uh, successful saying maybe probably, , some not so successful, what are some skills or traits that you, Kind of would highlight that, uh, that you find make for a great CRO. Yeah. So when I first
[00:03:21] Justin: started off in tech, back then, I think CROs lives were a little simpler and sales leaders lives were a little simpler, generally sold boxes, at that time.
[00:03:30] Or you sold applications, a lot of it was relationships and, Hey, we did our forecast on a napkin. Like it was simple. You know, you take out, you wine and die and your customer, they buy from you. And those days are gone. I think what makes a great CRO now, those traits are different.
[00:03:47] So first off. I think CRO should understand the product and the technology that they're selling. One, it gives validation to the team that they're building. And as we know, , jobs are still very fluid. , although maybe we're in a bit of a downturn right now, but, , , people can make choices in terms of where they work.
[00:04:05] And I think a leader who understands the actual product and the technology and how that translates into business value is, essential. It also gives them validation with the customers as well, too. So I've always taken the time to really actually understand the technology underneath it and be able to speak it.
[00:04:20] And I think that has helped me, , when, , the hearts and minds of my team. My partners and my customers. Second is you have to be active and transparent communicator. Bad news travels very fast in today's social media world. , and so you really just have to be active and transparent, , when you make mistakes or when things aren't going well.
[00:04:41] , because the bad news can turn into rumors and rumors can fly very, very fast. , and, , damage control , is always very difficult. So being active and transparent about what's going well, what's not going well, , being honest and upfront about mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. , I think, , in today's day and age, it's, That's very well accepted at this point.
[00:05:00] So if you make a mistake or if there's mistakes being made, just be honest and upfront and talk about what you're doing about it. , you have to know the numbers and you have to be good with metrics. , as well, gone are the days of doing your forecast on a napkin. , and so you really do need to be able to dive in and especially as you're working with the product management team, you're talking about going into new markets.
[00:05:19] You really need to have a handle , on the numbers. , and then I think one thing that I've learned over the last five to 10 years is the whole emergence of customer success, especially with software as a service. You really have to understand that it's not just a renewals team anymore. It is a customer success team.
[00:05:36] And, there is a never ending journey with customers. It never stops after the land. It doesn't stop after the renewal. , it just continues to go and go. It's , highly competitive. So understanding that full. End to end process and understanding customer success. So those are the traits that I think make a great CRO, , in today's world.
[00:05:55] Richard: I like it. There's no more sell and run, you've got to think about the whole picture, because, we not only have to be insightful as we engage our customers who are that much more educated these days, help them connect the dots to the problems are solving the value we're creating for them.
[00:06:11] But then even more important, making sure that they're implementing it in the right way and getting the value so that you can, do more good things with them. And so I love the, , Kind of the checklist that you gave us there of really understanding the product, understanding the customer, , being a good communicator, being honest and upfront.
[00:06:28] So that makes for a great checklist. Let's dig in a little bit about, those that might be on their track towards the CRO role, and so thinking about, some practical tips, maybe their VP of sales or they're running a sales team. They really want to take that next step.
[00:06:45] As you think of kind of career progression, any just practical tips come to mind there or do's or don'ts.
[00:06:52] Justin: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, so I think step one is make sure you have a CRO mentor, , or coach that you can call on. So you actually interviewed one of mine, , Al Montserrat on one of your earlier podcasts.
[00:07:03] , he taught me a lot in my journey to CRO. , some of the things that he taught me, I still use on a daily basis. , so that's first and foremost, be able to learn from someone. Highly, highly recommend that. , then in terms of other, , tips for success first is, , make sure you really practice document and practice operational rigor, , set a cadence and then be very transparent about it.
[00:07:25] So, like within thousand eyes, , I have a, , a documented 13 week cadence that everyone knows about every rep, every se, all my customer success team, a channel team, like we know on day one of a quarter, exactly what's going to happen in every week. And then everyone prepares for it and we just get in, we're doing QBOs or QBRs.
[00:07:46] We just knock those out quickly. We get back into the field. So that operational rigor, , and making sure it's documented in terms of how we're going to run our quarters, how we're going to forecast, , the processes that we use in our selling, , methodology. That's important. Set that cadence, be transparent about it, and then follow it.
[00:08:05] Second is, , sometimes I think this gets a little bit lost. I have to keep reminding myself because this is an evolution, but you have an ideal customer profile or an ICP always make sure you're refreshing that. But I think, , people is so critical. And so I always say ICP also is an ideal candidate profile.
[00:08:23] And that's another thing that I think also needs to be refreshed as you go about your journey, making sure who are the right people to have in at the right positions, , to grow your business globally. So I think that's important. , comp plans. I've been designing comp plans for a long time now. , I work with a consulting firm to stay fresh in what's happening in the market.
[00:08:42] Because the market as SaaS has exploded and every business is now a subscription company. The SaaS and how you comp SaaS has evolved, , and is evolving quickly. So , take the comp plan very seriously. It takes a lot more time and effort to really nail a comp plan, in my opinion, than one expects.
[00:08:59] , and make sure you take the time to understand what the market landscape is as well too. , probably point number four is measure all your key metrics. , someone long ago told me what gets measured gets done. I firmly believe that you do need to keep it simple. You can't have 400 different metrics that you're off chain chasing, but make sure those metrics are documented.
[00:09:21] And then set those goals, be transparent about them, , and make sure the team is marching towards accomplishing that one mistake I have seen continuously through every single, , one of my companies is. for example, you'll set a campaign. , so we're going to do this campaign for the next six months to go out and target these customers.
[00:09:41] And we're going to build pipeline and we're going to close, we're going to, we're going to book customers. Well, sometimes when you do those campaigns, people don't always set, what are the pipeline goals by month that we want to come out? What are the bookings, , that we want to make from this particular campaign?
[00:09:57] We know what our number is. We know we're driving to that number. Three months into it and it's how much pipeline have we generated? Oh, we've generated X. Okay, great. Is that good? , did we think we were going to generate half of X and we've generated X, which means we should celebrate, or did we actually think we were going to generate two X that amount?
[00:10:15] And so we're 50 percent off to the negative. , so making sure that as you engage and you launch campaigns or whatnot, Put those metrics in place, socialize them, what gets measured gets done, be transparent about it. And then, probably the last is, , tools on how you sell are developing very quickly with AI.
[00:10:38] We use tools like obviously salesforce. com. We have Clary as a visualization package on top of it. We have Gong for call recording, Zoom Info. We use Groove for, customer outreach and whatnot. , but it is amazing how fast these tools are developing and especially coming in with AI to help automate a lot of.
[00:10:58] What we do, , it's amazing how much we've been able to automate a lot of our QVO process, , our forecasting, our big deal reviews, and that gives us more time back to be with customers. So you got to stay up on that, on the latest development of those. Probably the last thing is just no, it's never going to go perfect.
[00:11:15] No, you'll make mistakes and just be okay with that. Because. It's not the easiest job on the planet, even though sometimes it appears to be,
[00:11:23] Richard: I can imagine. I can imagine. Well, thinking about that list, I've had the privilege of working for a number of companies. And then as we serve companies from a revenue enablement standpoint, We see and work with a lot of revenue, , leaders, , across industries, across, , different size of companies.
[00:11:41] And one thing I've noticed that you highlighted here is some of the best, , CROs or revenue leaders that I've worked with have that process mind, so you mentioned operational rigor and you mentioned, measuring what matters and, I do see sales leaders that aren't as process oriented as others.
[00:12:01] , but to me it just seems like a really, a critical success factor. , do you think that's something that even if you're not, a process guru, you can learn to be and fill that gap if, if this is really a CRO.
[00:12:15] Justin: Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses, which I think is also another trait for CROs, like to really truly understand what is their strengths, like what is my strengths and what is my weaknesses, you may not be a person who is really great at a documented discipline process, but this is where your Head of RebOps comes into play, or, within Cisco, we call it SP& O, Strategy Planning and Operations.
[00:12:41] But, I've always had this mantra of, As a CRO, my job is to drive the business, but I need that right hand person, that head of rev ops or used to be sales ops, now it's rev ops, strategy planning, that person needs to run the business, for me. And so where I may, fall off in terms of following the process, that we've documented, I've got that person standing next to me in my ear every day, helping drive forecast calls when I'm out on the road, helping make sure that we stay on track.
[00:13:12] I can't stress the importance of having that RevOps partner to help make you successful. And I remember I actually once turned down, a CRO gig because the CEO didn't believe in hiring a really strong RevOps person to help me with that. And, I just know that is a critical part of my success factor because I know that person will pick up, In some of the areas where I won't be as strong when I'm out trying to be a CRO, but yeah, .
[00:13:40] Got to learn certain part of the process, but then that's where the team that you surround yourself with can help you. Boost you and make you stronger.
[00:13:49] Richard: Love it. Yeah. So higher to your weaknesses or your gaps or, or just areas of the business that, you know, are critical for success, be able to focus on yourself.
[00:13:59] Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Well, , another success factor I see is I kind of just think about the most successful, , CRO as I've worked with is they tend to be really good collaborators with marketing leaders and product leaders. I've talked on prior podcasts around the three like Goal of sales, product and marketing.
[00:14:18] , find that to be true. When you think about product and marketing and your experience.
[00:14:22] Justin: Absolutely. , I always say when I'm meeting CEOs, I always say my two best partners, , are the head of product and the head of marketing and without them, I really can't be successful. so I always make sure I think of my CMO.
[00:14:39] Uh, it's like almost like my customer. Or like my customer in certain ways, , marketing is going to help drive funnel provide air cover for my team. , if you think about it, they really do fuel the field sales. They feel customer success. They also fuel channel as well. And there's so many disciplines that marketing covers.
[00:14:57] You've got product marketing. You've got demand gen, which, you know, brings you money and customer. So you've got AR, PR social, the list goes on. So marketing covers a lot. It's also very fast moving, , in today's, , SAS driven world. , but that partnership is absolutely key. Anytime I'm actually looking at a company, who that CMO , is absolutely critical.
[00:15:19] , but of course it all actually all starts with product. And the one thing I will say, the most important thing that makes a CRO successful. The number one thing is product market fit. , it is by far, , the number one thing, the better the product market fit with a truly differentiated technology, , or a solution depends on what you're selling, the easier your job gets.
[00:15:41] That's why I'm at thousand eyes right now. , we're obviously part of Cisco, but the product market fit, the need for the product is so strong. The need for the technology is so strong that it just makes things easier. And those product management leaders, , We'll help you sell, they'll be in the field.
[00:15:57] They are so passionate about the products that they built with engineering. and of course they also get very cranky when you don't sell, but one of the mistakes I think I see making is, , if product engineering, launch something like a new capability, new product in the field. If it is not selling, there needs to be a continuous loop.
[00:16:16] back with the product and the engineering leader as well. In terms of why it's not working. You'd never want to get into the blame game or the finger pointing. , like for example, if you're gearing up to go into federal space and you have asked product and engineering to work on all that's needed to achieve FedRAMP certification, you need to make sure that the appropriate expectations are set.
[00:16:39] With how long the sales cycles will be, what will they look like? How will that roll out? Because the last thing you want is an engineering leader who's asked this whole engineering team to go to work 24 by seven to get something done. And then they see nothing happen and they don't know why. , nobody likes surprises.
[00:16:55] So , that, but that really, that, that product fit. And then of course, as you're out with customers, you got to make sure all that feedback is, goes back to the product leader so that they continue to build and strengthen that. But those really are the two pillars, , for the partnership. outside of the CRO and rev ops organization that make, , make CRO so successful.
[00:17:16] Richard: That's great. And when I think about your, , operational rigor and your 13 week cadence, I imagine you probably have some elements in there along the way that says, here's where we're going to interact with marketing. Here's where we're going to interact with product or involve them, in your cadence of operating.
[00:17:33] Is that, is that right? Absolutely. Oh yeah. We've got,,
[00:17:36] Justin: every week where it's either my core, , SLT sales leadership team. , and then once a month we invite the marketing leaders in, we review where we are, , then at a different time, we invite the product and engineering leaders in to let them know what's going on in the field.
[00:17:51] Yeah, it is all scripted out and it just makes life. A lot easier for sure.
[00:17:58] Richard: That is great. , We're about out of time. , let's see if we could fit this last question in. , but, , another, , area that can be challenging for people, , you hear over the years, this idea of managing up, right?
[00:18:10] And so new CRO comes in. , has a boss, the CEO, just any practical tips for a new CRO on kind of managing up or just collaborating with and, and delighting their CEO.
[00:18:22] Justin: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I always do say. That if you had to choose between managing up or managing down, I'm more of a fan of managing down, but, , managing up as we know, it can be very important.
[00:18:33] So, , obviously the relationship with your boss, the CEO is critical. Now I was a CEO for four years at a startup and I did hire a CRO. So I'm lucky. I've been on both sides of the coin, but. , but I think the most important thing is you think about your CEO , , and managing up is, challenger sale is one of my favorite books in terms of selling methodologies.
[00:18:56] you don't want to be a lone wolf, , taking a cue from challenger sale. Make sure you bring that CEO into your journey, make them a stakeholder as well, too, right? You don't want to. Fail alone. , and you don't want to really win alone either. So making sure there is constant communication around what you're doing to the CEO, why you're doing it, making sure that they understand what your operational cadence is, what are the goals?
[00:19:19] What are the metrics? , obviously you're gonna be working with the CEO to set those, but, , but it's important. Especially if things don't go well, I think sometimes I see zeros not wanting to share that with their CEO or hope that they overcome it. But I, for one,, I look at the CEO, my boss as a partner, , not necessarily as just a boss and, , and I'm going to treat them like a customer.
[00:19:41] I'm going to be transparent. I'm going to over communicate. I'm going to be data driven. And then I think the last thing is, and I'm former military, so I do, , believe , in chain of command and hierarchy. , the three D's is another thing I learned from Al, discuss, debate, and then do. So even if it doesn't go your way, ultimately you should be signing up to the CEO's vision.
[00:20:02] If, the growth of the company requires, in my opinion, a strong CEO to drive. And so when you sign up to work for a CEO, you need to sign up that, Hey, they may do things that you don't agree with. But you got to sign up for it. So when you discuss and you debate with the CEO and that CEO makes a decision that you may not like, you got to get on board and you got to row behind it.
[00:20:23] because that's ultimately what you signed up to do. Now, sometimes things fall, CEOs go out, CEOs come in, and I understand that the world is not static, but that's always been my philosophy is I want to sign up to a leader who I believe is going to take this company to great things. We discuss, we debate.
[00:20:42] We decide, and then, so, uh, off to the races, maybe that's 40s. Love it.
[00:20:50] Richard: . No, I love it. , really smart. That decision is made, let's go. No more debate. We've decided. All right. Well, we are at the end of our time. So, if you've listened to us before,, I like to break away from our discussion and just ask you for, any goodness that, , That you've experienced recently, anything extra you want to share with our listeners that, , might be good advice to, to do, to read, to see, to listen to, et cetera.
[00:21:16] Justin: I personally like to read sci fi, and so when I read, I like to escape into, and I'm not like a huge non fiction reader. However, I mentioned The Challenger Sale, that was a book that I absolutely loved. , I will say for CROs, it's now mandatory that you need to go and read The Qualified Sales Leader by John McMahon.
[00:21:36] it's definitely, I think the best book on the market today for CROs. , this guy was a five times CRO. He knows his stuff. , especially if you're selling subscription software or software as a service, , but it is really a fantastic book. , I gave it to everyone on my team. , and it will definitely help you with your game as well, too, as a CRO.
[00:21:59] Richard: Fantastic. Love it. , thanks for that advice and thank you for your time today. , we look forward to chatting with you again soon. Hey, this was fun. I hope you have me back at some point in time. We'll definitely will. Thank you, Justin. All right. Thanks.
