Eva Daniel edited
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[00:00:00] Richard (2): Research conducted at the University at Buffalo School of Management. Found that strong communication skills reliably predict leadership emergence in teams and a Harvard Business Review survey showed that communication and presentation skills are among the C level competencies that companies prize most today.
[00:00:19] We'll dive into some goodness around the importance of leaders, mastering public speaking for the sake of both their careers and their team results.
[00:00:33] Welcome to some goodness, where we engage seasoned business leaders and experts to share practical guidance and tips to help new and future C level leaders maximize their impact. My guest today is Eva Daniel, founder of the Speak Shop. A speaker coaching business that helps thought leaders develop and deliver compelling content with decades of experience working with top authors, speakers, and innovators.
[00:00:55] Eva has helped shape the voices of some of our generation's most impactful leaders. Eva, welcome.
[00:01:02] Eva: Thank you so much for having me today.
[00:01:03] Richard (2): I'm so excited to dig into this topic of communication and speaking abilities. Us just serving lots of clients across lots of industries. We see speakers, good and bad, right?
[00:01:15] And I want to learn some good stuff and maybe some fun stories from you. But as you've worked with countless leaders over your career, what made you focus specifically on helping leaders with communication and their speaking and presentation abilities?
[00:01:29] Eva: Well, I just think that leadership is so important in our culture and the way that we communicate matters.
[00:01:36] And those who tell the best stories are sometimes the most well spoken are the ones that get their voices out. Regardless, sometimes even if they have the best message. I think we've all seen that. seeing people that seem to have this big platform and we're like, Oh, you're a moron. And then others of us, we feel like, wow, I have this really important message within me that maybe is not always shared.
[00:01:54] And I think a lot of times that those differences just get down to how will we communicate? How will we express our ideas? How will we sell? in front of others. And it's just such an important thing. And on a personal level, I have had the opportunity to work with so many leaders and I've seen so many things that both hold them back and also small little tactical things that they can do to really improve the way that they're communicating.
[00:02:18] Richard (2): That's wonderful. Early in my career, one of my mentors said to me, sometimes the way or how you communicate your message is almost as important as the message itself. So are you finding that to be true?
[00:02:33] Eva: Absolutely. Although I would say a lot of times, People, what they perceive our delivery challenges, especially in public speaking, maybe they have a lot of filler words or a lot of rabbit trails, or they don't know what to do with their hands on the stage, or maybe they have nerves.
[00:02:46] A lot of times I do find that those challenges are directly tied to their content. They're not clear on what they're trying to say, how they're trying to say it. Say it. Maybe they haven't organized their content in a compelling way, or they don't have stories or they don't have humor. I've seen it go both ways.
[00:03:02] I've seen really, really dynamic presenters, as I'm sure you have too, that you leave their message and you're like, actually, that was kind of a cotton candy experience. It was exciting and it was fun, but there wasn't really any depth there. I've also seen people that have incredible stories, incredible messages that because they haven't worked on that delivery side, it falls really flat.
[00:03:21] So, I always say communication is both. Especially in public speaking, there's the content side and there's the delivery side. There are two sides of the same coin. You need to be able to do both well to be able to get your thoughts across.
[00:03:35] Richard (2): Okay. That's interesting. So the content can lead to confidence and more clearer communication.
[00:03:41] You mentioned some challenges. So what are some other challenges that besides the filler words and things that we always think about, are there any big challenges that might be hidden under the surface that we should really be mindful of? Okay.
[00:03:52] Eva: Well, one of the biggest challenges I think that people face is procrastination.
[00:03:57] We wait too long to develop the content and too long to practice the delivery. And I think procrastination can actually come from a couple of reasons. Sometimes it's insecurity that we're not overly confident and we put it off. We put it off because we don't want to do it. And we kind of want to be able to have the excuse of, Oh, I didn't really have enough time to practice.
[00:04:13] parent. And then on the flip side of that, we can also lean towards arrogance because we know we can kind of mail it in and still do a really good job. So honestly, I do think procrastination is one of those hidden villains holding people back when it comes to their communication. I think another one can just be, especially for leaders who maybe have a communications director on their team or someone that helps them out.
[00:04:35] pulled together top talking points. I think one mistake leaders can fall into is just reading the talking points verbatim, how they were given to them. And I've been a professional ghost writer. I've written so many speeches in my career and we do our best to produce comments that sound like you, but ultimately we're doing our best.
[00:04:56] We don't know your word choices, what words you kind of stumble on. We don't always know your cadence or the way that you would say things. And so sometimes what can happen, leaders just take these talking points or a slide deck that's given to them and they don't really personalize it and make it their own.
[00:05:11] Making sure that every single word is a word they would use, that they would say it that way. And Oftentimes, depending on the strength of the writer giving those points to you, they can be more formally written. This happens even on our own writing. Let's just even ditch that you're given talking points.
[00:05:27] We write more formally than we speak. Good speaking oftentimes is not good writing. In speaking, you're going to start sentences with and or but in writing, we're not necessarily going to do that. Or we're going to use more formal words, we're going to use the word facilitated in our writing. Well, maybe you wouldn't actually say that in real life.
[00:05:45] So, sometimes one of the things that can hold you back is not taking it from the page to start practicing it and iterating it out loud, to make sure that either what you've written or someone else has written for you is written a way that actually sounds better. Like you and then a third one that I have to hit.
[00:06:04] These is just so important. Another thing holding leaders back is not sharing enough stories And not really learning the art of storytelling and how to tell their stories in a compelling way stories make our content stick Research consistently shows that we're six to seven times more likely to remember content if it's wrapped within a story So tell more stories And use more stories in your communication.
[00:06:32] Richard (2): I like that. And when I think about some of the engaging leaders that I've either served under or watched on stage, it is those that have great stories to tell. And it can move from an okay presentation to not only an engaging presentation, but in some cases, mesmerizing, right? Where you're just like, Oh, tell me another story.
[00:06:51] Eva: Absolutely. Do you share stories in your speaking?
[00:06:54] Richard (2): I do try to, and in our world of revenue enablement, people want to know how other sellers are successful, what they're doing that leads to success, or other enablement teams are doing to really drive revenue performance improvement. And so, just having those tangible stories makes it real.
[00:07:11] For them
[00:07:13] Eva: and one quick tip on that that I always encourage people do, but sometimes it's like we fundamentally know we should tell stories, but then when we're preparing our content, whether that's even just presenting, you know, in front of five or 10 in a meeting at work, or whether it is, maybe you're on a stage or delivering a presentation at a conference.
[00:07:30] Um, and so what you want to do is start keeping a story file. So just on your notes app of your phone, as experiences happen to you, or even as you, for example, read a book and you were gripped by a story from Abraham Lincoln in the book or someone else, just jot a little note in your notes app to just trigger your memory.
[00:07:46] You're not writing out the full story, but you're just kind of capturing some of those experiences that are happening to you. So when you are. Press to create a presentation or stand up for some remarks. You have a basis to draw from and look at. And also on that, keeping a humor file, writing humorous things down as they happen to you when you laugh or when people laugh at work about something, just jotting a little note so that you can also have a little bit of a basis to add some humor, not only to your storytelling, but your communication in general.
[00:08:16] Richard (2): Oh, that's really great. Yeah. I need to do a better job of that. Making notes as they come to mind or throughout the day. That's good. Let me ask you something. We're all about being very practical, right? And I'm just curious. So last week I was at a conference on a revenue enablement conference and I led a session on designing a really engaging SKO.
[00:08:36] And so we had a great discussion and collaboration with the group. But one question came up, you mentioned procrastination is a challenge and you mentioned, you know, you need to get beyond just reading the talking points and actually practice verbalizing and hearing words come out of your mouth. Cause that's different, right?
[00:08:52] You write differently than you speak. Do you have any advice for those executives that we work with that do not want to practice and rehearse and they keep canceling those rehearsals that we schedule to just really get them well prepared.
[00:09:06] Eva: That's a great question. And I think if you figure out the answer to that, you can start a whole new career and make millions of dollars.
[00:09:13] I would say for the person listening who in terms of them, one reason I just want to call out that you've already indicated the reason practicing in front of other people is so important is it helps you do so many things from knowing how long your content is running, the flow, the confidence. But if you're in a position like you just mentioned where it's like, okay, how can I get other people to practice?
[00:09:34] Because I know that it would be different if you can, if you have the kind of relationship with them, I would just have a really open conversation with them. I also think something effective that you could do is ask them, Hey, can we record your presentation? And then after it, just look at how we can continue to level up the way we're communicating.
[00:09:54] Sometimes that post mortem, um, can be really insightful. And one of the things I would say is probably those leaders that have kind of a version to it. One reason why is because they probably never received helpful feedback. So a lot of times we were just really bad at both getting and giving feedback.
[00:10:13] True feedback is clear and it's specific and it's kind. It's not helpful to tell anyone, Hey, you know, it'd be nice if you had a little more humor. Well, what does that mean? I just spoke for 20 minutes. It's way more helpful to say, hey, your seven to minute, nine minute mark is really dry. You need some humor, maybe something like this.
[00:10:31] Or I got really confused when you were telling the story about your colleague in 2017. I feel like maybe you could have done this. So again, giving clear, specific, kind feedback can really start moving the needle. As far as helping someone want to practice, I think pretty much all you can do, encourage them, put it on the calendar, hope they don't cancel, be a helpful resource to them.
[00:10:57] And for those of you listening who have your own aversion to practicing, figuring out a little bit why that is. Sometimes it could be because of who you are giving the presentation in front of. Sometimes it could be because you've procrastinated and you don't really have the content ready to go. I would say, most often in my experience, when someone I've worked with have canceled those sessions, it's because they're kind of a little embarrassed because they haven't actually thought about the presentation or put the work in and they're not.
[00:11:24] Ready, so sometimes it's just maybe even adjusting the timelines of when you have those I always say the best time to run a presentation through others tends to be Anywhere from five to seven days out from the presentation Usually by then you've done the bulk of the work on the presentation or at least to some of it, but it's not so far away that you're not even in that headspace to do it.
[00:11:47] Um, I would say though, also, it's usually not that helpful to run a presentation through day of, because what can people really suggest? I mean, to a degree they have to just say, Oh, well, that was good. Or remember to smile more because there are any significant content changes. It's too late. So if you really, even in your own leadership.
[00:12:06] So if you don't want to start leveling up your speaking, I would encourage you to practice your content in front of real people. And I would suggest doing it five to seven days out of a presentation. And also the bigger the presentation, the more of a timeline you should be spending on the delivery side.
[00:12:23] And what I mean by that, you know, big presentation doesn't necessarily mean volume of people because a big stage can just be a one on one presentation you're giving on zoom. So, Yeah. Okay. Because maybe you're trying to sell your company or maybe you're doing something like that. And so recognizing how important the presentation is should kind of adjust your timeline.
[00:12:42] There's a fellow speech writer I follow and he suggests that you spend at least 25 percent of your time. working on the delivery side. So he suggests, and I think it's pretty good rule of thumb, 50 percent of your time, just thinking about the topic, 25 percent writing, and at least a fourth of your time working on that delivery side.
[00:12:59] And I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb.
[00:13:01] Richard (2): Those are great rules of thumb, both the timeline, uh, aspect, and then the balance of where you spend your time. So we have listeners that are both support resources or leaders. As well as leaders themselves and aspiring leaders. And so hopefully this gives them some real practical guidance and tips on how to prepare others and provide intentional or effective feedback.
[00:13:20] And then as a leader, some things we can think about how we can take our presentation skills to the next level. And I'm just thinking about, you know, I speak a lot and facilitate a lot and do trainings. And if you work with me for any time at all, you'll know that one of my favorite words is intention or intentionality, right?
[00:13:37] And so just some of that feedback that you've given or advice around the type of feedback and the purpose of rehearsal, you're not just rehearsing just to get the flow down and to understand your content, but it's also let's be intentional about those rehearsals or those practice sessions so that we can find.
[00:13:55] Are there some dry points in the presentation where we can amplify with a story and lighten things up, etc. And so if we can bring some intentionality to the rehearsals and the practices, I think that can take the presentation to the next level.
[00:14:09] Eva: Agreed, yeah. So, do you practice? You said you spoke last week.
[00:14:12] Richard (2): I do. So it depends on the topic, right? And so if it's something I've taught or trained to many times, I've got the stories and I've got the flow down. But if it's something new, I do kind of rehearse. I do not do a good job of verbalizing it, right? So a lot of times I'll just kind of go over it in my head and read through my flow, but you really encouraged me to speak it aloud, right?
[00:14:34] Eva: And another quick tip on the self practice because there's, you know, that practicing in front of other people. But even when we're just looking at practicing for ourself. I am a huge fan of the voice memos app that comes preloaded on iPhones. When you're sitting down with your notes, your computer, your slide deck, record yourself giving the presentation exactly how you'd like to give it if you had all of your stuff with you.
[00:14:54] And you'd be amazed at how much more time you have to work on the content, internalize the content when you're driving and picking up kids or you're mowing the lawn or you're going on a run or whatever your normal routine is and hearing yourself giving back. You can learn a lot. We all hate the sound of our own voice.
[00:15:09] So we all have to get over that, but it gives you a lot of perspective, even how am I saying things? So I like the way I'm saying it. It helps lock it in your memory in a different way.
[00:15:18] Richard (2): That's wonderful. Really good advice there. I'm going to have to take you up on that. Right now, my verbalizing approach is just giving my presentation to my dogs that are usually around my desk.
[00:15:29] My wife's heard enough of my stuff. She doesn't want me to practice on her. So I'm just kind of at my desk doing my thing out loud, but I don't do it enough. But I like that idea of recording myself. That would be good. Well, I know you've seen some great speakers, some good speakers, some not so good speakers.
[00:15:45] Are there any kind of attributes or characteristics that separate the good from the bad or the good from the great that are something we could lean into, learn, whether it's skills or techniques? I know some people are just naturally gifted, but for those of us that maybe aren't, and we want to kind of hone our craft here.
[00:16:03] Eva: Well, do you have all day?
[00:16:05] Richard (2): I know we could, we could go on for a while. A
[00:16:07] Eva: few things. One thing that great speakers have is thought leadership. And that word is thrown around so much now that it almost feels like, what does that even mean? But they really have done the work to figure out. What do they think about their industry?
[00:16:22] What are some of the things they might think differently? Those hot takes, those strongly held opinions they might have about their industry that maybe not everybody else has. I wouldn't encourage anyone to think through your 10 hot takes about your field or your industry. They've also within the thought leadership.
[00:16:37] Figure it out a way to package their content in a more interesting way. When I was first starting at my own business a couple of years ago, I met with a mentor who shared with me, he goes, Eva, people buy systems and strategies and frameworks. And so the sooner you can come up with your own system or strategy or framework, the more successful your brand and your company will be.
[00:16:59] Well, he was telling me that in terms of small business, but I believe that's also true when it comes to creating some of these more iconic speeches, more iconic communication is, what is your system or your strategy or framework? Any one of us can say, we need to have good habits to become successful people.
[00:17:16] You or I could give the talk on that, that good habits over time make you successful. Well, Stephen Covey said there's seven habits of highly effective people and this is what they are. Or more recently, James Clear says you need to have atomic habits. This is what an atomic habit is and how you apply it.
[00:17:32] So I always just like to challenge people to think through what are your seven habits or how are you going to say your information in maybe a way that's a little bit more interesting, a little bit more simple. Sticky, a little bit more memorable. Another thing that I see great speakers doing, those ones that really make that jump from good to great, and we've touched around it a lot, but is storytelling, leaning into storytelling.
[00:17:54] And we use that word a lot, just like thought leadership, like, Oh, tell stories like, okay, but we don't really do the work of telling a story. A story is not. A linear list of facts. A happened, then B happened, then C happened, then D happened. A story brings us into the moment. Oftentimes, we're just starting our stories at the wrong spot to be interesting to our audience.
[00:18:14] Instead of starting at the beginning, what would it look like to start in the middle or the center of the action? Oftentimes, too, on our storytelling, we make the mistake of not sharing how when this experience happened, beyond the facts. How did that make us feel? And what did it make us think? If anyone's like me, I grew up in a family where there's about two or three feelings.
[00:18:32] You're either happy, angry, or sad. There turns out there's a lot more feelings than that. And you can Google feelings wheel. And so, Oh, well, actually, when that experience happened, I felt really happy. Disappointed, or I felt really inspired or whatever that, you know, using more descriptive language in your storytelling, pulling in those feelings can really start leveling up your stories.
[00:18:53] And then another thing that really can help leaders go from good to great in their communication is humor. using more levity. A big study was done by Oracle a couple years ago that showed that people are over 90 percent more likely to buy from a brand when they think that the brand is funny or humorous.
[00:19:13] And so it's just an indication that, you know, we want to be able to share some humor, but that feels really hard and it feels really hard in the workplace. So I always recommend the book. humor seriously. That book is just about humor, humor in the workplace. How do we use humor appropriately? When do you use self deprecating humor?
[00:19:33] When do you not use self deprecating humor? There's a lot of just humor principles that any of us can learn. Any of us can use, and that really starts leveling up our communication, especially the longer your presentation, the more important it is to use humor. And I always like to clarify. Humor is not necessarily jokes.
[00:19:50] It can be if you're a joke teller. I'm not a joke teller, but you know, if you are just a natural joke teller, that's okay, but by humor, I'm saying it's a levity, it's a lightness, it's a self awareness, you look like you're having fun when you're communicating your ideas because you want other people to enjoy your presentations as well.
[00:20:09] Obviously not every single presentation or thing we're communicating has a ton of space for humor or levity. Maybe you are having to announce some layoffs at the company or you are having to announce some budget cuts, but when possible and circumstances when you can use humor, it's such an effective communications tool.
[00:20:26] Richard (2): That's great. And I do like that you called out. It's not just about telling some jokes, right? It's about levity and a little bit can be subtle humor versus just direct humor of joke telling. I, I'm thinking of a particular sales leader from my past many years ago. I won't name names, but he tried to tell us a few jokes and it was just crickets.
[00:20:47] And it was like, Oh, that was kind of a cringey moment.
[00:20:49] Eva: Humor is probably one of the hardest skills to learn for communication. But gosh, if you can start mastering even just those slight moments of levity in a way that there's not crickets and people at least give the smile or the courtesy. Yes.
[00:21:02] Richard (2): Yes. Well, and I love books and so I have not seen or read humor.
[00:21:07] Seriously, I wrote it down
[00:21:09] Eva: authors of humor. Seriously also gave a great Ted talk that can kind of give you a snapshot.
[00:21:13] Richard (2): Oh, cool. That as well. Oh, great. I'll check that out. Well, our time is flying by. Like you mentioned, we could go on and on and I'd love to talk to you more outside of this, but yeah. One last question.
[00:21:23] And we've talked a lot about some challenges to avoid some great practical tips. Right now it's sales kickoff season, right? We're starting to think about beginning of the year, kicking off. Of course, you know, now we're starting to find companies calling it revenue kickoff, right? Where it's not just the sales team, but bringing marketing, customer success together.
[00:21:40] But keynotes is real big, right? So everybody's starting to think about, okay, what leaders are going to be leading keynotes. Is there one tip? That everybody can kind of think about how do we make sure our keynote session, our presentation is compelling, is engaging, is fun. Any takeaways that you haven't mentioned yet?
[00:22:00] Eva: I would say if you are that event organizer, a little bit of this side, you're kind of in that, okay, who are we inviting? Who's going to speak? Be really conscious of the order that you're putting your speakers in. Put your energetic speaker after lunch. Don't put a speaker. That's a little bit, maybe a little bit drier, a little bit more technical presentation.
[00:22:19] You know, think of the cadence and the flow of your event and place the speakers accordingly where the day is. And if you're the speaker and you should always look where you fall in the lineup. If you are in that block after lunch and you're the second speaker. What can you do to add a little audience participation or get you get the audience, you know, maybe even on their feet doing something.
[00:22:40] So always paying attention when you're booked as a speaker, who has gone before you, who's going after you, where are you in the lineup? If you're day three of the conference after lunch, that's going to be a lot harder than, you know, if you're that morning slot the first day. So I would say, look at the energy flow.
[00:22:55] Another one I would just say. say is really look for at least one out of the box kind of speaker for your event to really kind of shake things up in your industry. Bring in somebody that's interesting. One of my clients that I've gotten to work with a lot, he's been to all 197 countries. So what would it look like to bring in somebody that's maybe a little bit out of the box?
[00:23:17] To your events to make it a little bit more interesting, a little bit more stretch the way that your employees are thinking.
[00:23:25] Richard (2): That's excellent advice. Thank you for that. If you've listened to us before, you know that we like to close in a unique way, and that is with just sharing some goodness, right? So what have you been up to recently that brings a little goodness to your day outside of the presentation and skills and speaking coaching that you do?
[00:23:41] Eva: Yeah. Well, I love to read. I just love reading. Reading is really fun for me. And so I recently just finished reading Malcolm Gladwell's new book, The Revenge of the Tipping Point, and I just really enjoyed, have you ever read anything from Malcolm Gladwell?
[00:23:57] Richard (2): I have. I've read his others, but I haven't read.
[00:23:59] So I
[00:23:59] Eva: love what I love about his books is he pulls all these seemingly unrelated topics. And he just pulls them together in such an interesting way. And then because I love Malcolm Gladwell so much, I actually got to hear him on his book tour as well. And so that was just really fun for me to hear that because I just, yeah, I'm a big fan of Malcolm Gladwell.
[00:24:18] I met him years ago and I've been a big fan of his work ever since.
[00:24:22] Richard (2): Outstanding. That's so good. So now I have two good books to put on have
[00:24:26] Eva: to read. You're going to just.
[00:24:27] Richard (2): That's right. I'll have to find time for that.
[00:24:30] Eva: What about you? What's your answer to that question? I'll
[00:24:32] Richard (2): Oh, well, outside of the business world, some recent goodness with us is that my youngest daughter is a junior at Texas Tech University, and she just recently adopted a little Dalmatian puppy.
[00:24:42] And so that's been some goodness just playing with a puppy. She's been a phenomenal dog trainer. She potty trained him in like five days, crate trained him. He does all kinds of tricks already.
[00:24:54] Eva: She's been my two and a half year old dog that still jumps and goes crazy.
[00:24:57] Richard (2): Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so he's, he's learning not to do that, which is good, right?
[00:25:01] Not to bite, not to jump. He'll sit, he'll roll over, he'll play dead. And so that's been a lot of fun. We love animals and we love our dogs. So that's been some goodness recently.
[00:25:11] Eva: Oh, that's great. I love that.
[00:25:13] Richard (2): Well, thank you again for your time. And I'd love to have you back for another episode, if you're willing.
[00:25:19] Eva: I would love that.
[00:25:21] Richard (2): All right. Take care.
[00:25:23] Announcer: Thank you. Bye.
[00:25:28] Some goodness is a creation of revenue innovations. Visit us at revenueinnovations. com and subscribe to our newsletter.
