Some Goodness Episode 13 - Instant Likeability with Guest Eva Daniel
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[00:00:00] Richard Ellis: Research from Princeton University shows that people make judgments about trustworthiness within the first tenth of a second of meeting someone, and according to a study in the Journal of Psychological Science, these first impressions can be remarkably accurate predictors. So how do you make sure you maximize your likability in an instant?
[00:00:28] Welcome to some goodness, where we engage seasoned business leaders and experts to share practical guidance and tips to help new and future C level leaders maximize their impact. Back with us today is Eva Daniel, founder of The Speak Shop. Eva has spent decades helping leaders develop their authentic voice and build meaningful connections.
[00:00:47] Eva, welcome back!
[00:00:49] Eva Daniel: Thank you so much for having me again. It's so fun to be with you today.
[00:00:53] Richard Ellis: I just got so much out of our last conversation, uh, presentation and speaking skills and challenges to watch out for. The other topic that I'm really intrigued with is building rapport. And so you've shared a little bit about the importance of, you know, your authentic voice, first impressions.
[00:01:11] So let's talk about building rapport today and let's start off with, well, what does that really mean in a business context to you?
[00:01:18] Eva Daniel: To me, rapport just means that instant likability. Research shows that you even quoted it, that we make snap judgments of people. Some people say it's seven seconds. Some people say it's one 10th of a second.
[00:01:29] We do know first impressions. We make them of others. People make them of us. So rapport is just how do you become instantly likable to the people around you?
[00:01:39] Richard Ellis: So we work with a lot of leaders that will be recruited into a new business and take over a team, right? A new C level taking over a whole team or function, and they've got a lot on their plates.
[00:01:50] Why should they care about or think about rapport intentionally or likability?
[00:01:55] Eva Daniel: Well, because they are now going to be moving a team of people in a direction to accomplish those mission, those goals, those big things that you're setting out to do as a company. Wow. If people like you, they're going to want to do more for you.
[00:02:07] If they trust you, if they think you're a great person, they are going to want to move in the direction that you're taking them and you're going to spend a lot less time if you set a really good foundation at the beginning than PR work or repair relationships down the line.
[00:02:21] Richard Ellis: Love that. As you think about your experience serving and coaching people across industries, right?
[00:02:27] Are there any kind of industry uniquenesses or differences we need to care about, or maybe in contrast to that, just some universal principles that apply all the time that we can keep in mind in terms of that, I like what you called it, instant likability.
[00:02:42] Eva Daniel: Yeah. Well, one of the big ones is just body language.
[00:02:45] And so you and I talked last time a lot about public speaking and even, you know, body language applies to whether that's a one on one, those small meetings on the stage, and that is thrown around a lot like body language. Okay. We know we need to have good body language, but we don't always know what that means on like the really tactical actions.
[00:03:02] So there's a lot of really small things you can do to have better body language. One of those, for example, is that we're more trusting of people. When we can see their palms.
[00:03:12] Richard Ellis: Oh, really? And
[00:03:13] Eva Daniel: so in your first 30 seconds, minute, show people your palms when it's your turn to talk, whether that's in a meeting or on a stage, if you are on a zoom call, and I'm not doing the best example of this today, I realized, but be 18 to 24 inches away from your camera so that people can see your palms.
[00:03:32] Okay. So they can see your gestures. We've all been on those Zoom calls where does a person even have arms like we never see their hands at all. And so you want people to be able to see your gestures. Another body language tip, make better eye contact. Research was done that shows, it's called a leadership gaze.
[00:03:51] So research was done of how much normal people make eye contact versus CEOs and high level leaders. And most of us make eye contact. 30 percent to 40 percent of the time, but a lot of studies have been done on CEOs and C suite execs and it shows they tend to make eye contact 60 percent to 70 percent of the time.
[00:04:13] When I say making eye contact, you can quickly make eye contact with a lot of people, but you haven't really made eye contact with anyone. So instead, Hold that gaze longer. If you're on a stage and you're speaking, complete one full sentence, one full thought with one person before you turn to the next person and complete that thought and that sentence with them.
[00:04:33] So eye contact is a big one. Um, also when you see someone, and this is even people you don't know if you're on a stage, practice using the eyebrow flash. Do you know what the eyebrow flash is, Richard?
[00:04:44] Richard Ellis: I don't think I do. Tell me.
[00:04:46] Eva Daniel: So when we see someone we know, we naturally raise our eyebrows up. Oh, Richard.
[00:04:50] So good to see you. Well, you can still do that when you get on a stage or when you're in front of a new group that you haven't really met. Do the eyebrow flash because you're excited to see them. It breeds familiarity. We feel like that person has seen us and known us. It's a very subtle, subtle thing.
[00:05:06] Another one. Is you think this is so obvious and I'll frame it within a story. So a couple of weeks ago I found myself, I live here in the Nashville area and I go to a fair amount of networking events. I'm a small business owner, so I know the value of meeting new people, getting yourself and your message out there.
[00:05:22] And I'm at this networking event and I start talking to this gentleman and He starts looking over my shoulder and it was that feeling of he's trying to look over my shoulder for someone more interesting to talk to, not making eye contact, looking over my shoulder. And we were not like, I wasn't going on and on in the monologue.
[00:05:40] I mean, it was that just kind of rude, you know, when you're talking to someone, even if they might not be the most interesting person, be fully engaged in the moment you're in. You're not scrolling through your phone. And this is even a challenge. Just next time you're anywhere, instead of being on your phone in that check at line, like.
[00:05:57] Look around. Some people might think you're a little bit of a weirdo, but the world we live in, but you know, get off your phone and get more in the environment. Be present where you are with the people that you're with. And this goes on virtual presentations as well. As far as that building report, have your camera turned on, contribute in the meeting.
[00:06:16] Be engaged where you are. That makes a big difference in your likability and building that rapport. You want to be around friendly people. I want to be around friendly people. So be engaged, smile, make eye contact. They sound like such basic body language skills, but a lot of times we're just not doing them.
[00:06:36] Also, it says that others can be more receptive of the things that we're sharing if they're holding something, because again, that kind of open hand. So, As old school as it might sound, still handing someone a business card. So they have something in their hand, or if you are at a networking event where there is, you know, your little food plate or your drink, grab one of those things that you have something in your hand.
[00:06:57] And hopefully those talking to you have something in their hand as well.
[00:07:00] Richard Ellis: Such goodness in terms of practicality. And my wheels are turning in terms of things that I may or may not be doing. Next time you're
[00:07:07] Eva Daniel: networking here, but you're going to be like flashing your eyebrows and like handing people.
[00:07:12] Richard Ellis: Richard, what's up with your eyebrows these days?
[00:07:14] Eva Daniel: Well, I talked to the speech coach on this podcast. Perfect.
[00:07:18] Richard Ellis: I love that. Well, and I like that you gave us some practical tips for Zoom and for web meetings, right? When you mentioned body language and just eye contact and things like that, getting away from the webcam, etc.
[00:07:29] Those are great practical tips. Last time we were talking about, in terms of presentations, bringing some humor into it, right? Storytelling helps a lot, and I would suspect that some of those techniques also can influence your likability. Do you find that to be true as well?
[00:07:45] Eva Daniel: Yes, and storytelling is such a huge way to connect with people.
[00:07:49] Stories make your content stick. It's also what helps you become more memorable with others. And some research has also been shown that people actually like more talkative people. And so Yes, we need to become active listeners. We need to listen well, the world and everything we go to is not all about us, but do share some stories about yourself or some vulnerability or even saying something like, let's say you are at a networking event, even saying like, Oh my gosh, I was so nervous.
[00:08:16] I just had to parallel park. I'm still worried about the truck, but just opening up, you know, a little bit of a window to who you are or a little bit of a story, you know, having some pocket stories about, well, you should be able to pretty cleanly share who you are. And what you do, why you're passionate about the work, a recent story or experience of something that happened with your client or at work, those should be top of mind.
[00:08:39] I believe on the last podcast, we talked a little bit about keeping a story file. Sometimes our minds are just not really thinking through stories, but certainly kind of keep a little bit better track in our life, uh, stories or humorous things as they happen, because we do connect through others when they share stories.
[00:08:55] And it doesn't have to be all these, you know, you don't have to meet someone and share them all. You're sorted. Deepest darkest things you can just kind of share about, you know, something that happened to the way or a book you've been reading or a vacation you're planning or this interesting thing that happened at work.
[00:09:09] It invites other people into your life and connect with you on a deeper level.
[00:09:14] Richard Ellis: Well, and it seems like that would just do some good in terms of coming across more authentic, right? More human. And a lot of times, you know, we'll see new leaders come in and we'll put them on a pedestal and like, okay, I want to be on my best behavior in front of our new leader.
[00:09:27] If they come across like a real person, right, and authentic through some of those stories, I think not only does that help them in terms of their instant likability, but also gets others to open up and let loose a little bit, put your hair down, all of that good stuff.
[00:09:40] Eva Daniel: And I mean, various companies differ on how much, for example, each employee fills out things they like or they don't like, hobbies, where they'd want a gift card from, any of those things.
[00:09:49] But, you know, if you're a new leader at a company and really wanting to get to know your team. In those one on ones, kind of like, try to get to know them on, you know, more of a personal level. Ask them, you know, what a goal is, or a travel, or a bucket list item. And get some of those conversations going beyond just those work competencies and what their job is as well.
[00:10:07] Richard Ellis: That's good. Well, let me ask you this. So, I'm reminded of a client I was serving a few years ago. And I was talking to one of the team members that was kind of on the core project team, and they were sharing some background about their CEO. It's funny because you mentioned instant likeability. They said, when I first met him, I didn't like him, but after I actually went to dinner with him and had him outside of that formal setting, I like him a lot.
[00:10:34] He's a great guy. And so do you have any just practical tips maybe for new leaders that have been hired in to take over a team? You know, they have their typical town hall meetings and kind of meet and greets for the company. How do they move from just kind of being too stiff and formal to instantly likable and kind of that setting?
[00:10:53] Eva Daniel: Well, and I think you addressed it really well. It is a big challenge because sometimes, you know, that leader who was hired in. There's a good chance someone else on the team really wanted that job that they didn't get. And so you might even be starting a couple steps behind with a few people on your team that maybe felt that someone else should have gotten that role that they should have gotten into, you know, that the middle manager should have gotten fill in the blank.
[00:11:16] And so sometimes you just need to recognize like some people on your team, you might be starting with a little bit more of a deficit than others. And you might not know who those people were until months or even a year or two down the line. But a few things that I would suggest is if possible, Fairly new into your new leadership role.
[00:11:33] Can you give the team, uh, like, and I'm, I'm using the word speech and that might be far too formal depending on the size of your team, but a little bit more of like, I get to know you where you do share some about your family or some stories you share more about, like who you are and your passion for it.
[00:11:49] So again, sharing a lot of those stories, I think can make a really big difference. People can connect really well through you. I know some leaders that have actually intentionally chosen to send out kind of a weekly email kind of slash newsletter to their team. I've seen leaders do that. I also worked with a leader once who a CEO of a very successful company in the healthcare service.
[00:12:10] space. He would start every day writing two or three thank you letters to people he had seen on his team that did something well, and he would hand deliver those. And he started doing that really early on into his leadership. It's a small little action that didn't take that long, but made a really big impact.
[00:12:26] And then also, you know, I was a speechwriter for Dave Ramsey. And one thing that Dave did that I always thought was really interesting was he would go down at lunch during the cafeteria and just flop down at random tables. It wasn't with like, the organized lunch with the other, you know, C suite execs and people.
[00:12:43] He would just plop down at the table and, and, and introduce himself, which always felt a little, like, a little comical, like we all know who you are. But I just kind of start the conversation up with people. So I think that even doing simple things like that of what would it look like? And then another thing, you know, I saw Dave do that.
[00:12:58] I've actually been at two companies where I've seen this just kind of midday. He would just kind of walk through the halls and just chat with people, not walking through to like micromanage that people were working. That was not what it was about. It was just a casual walk through, get water from a different water machine, see what's on that, the free table or the food table in a different department and just kind of be around and present a little bit more.
[00:13:19] And it's amazing that it doesn't have to be. Large swaths of time. You're more than likely you're going to eat lunch anyway. And maybe you were going to eat it at your lunch while doing email. Why not take that 15 to 20 minutes to eat your sandwich down with some other people?
[00:13:33] Richard Ellis: Oh, that's really good. And just being more present, more available, and then also a little more human.
[00:13:39] Hey, we all eat lunch. We take a break. So I'm going to just visit this water cooler this time.
[00:13:43] Eva Daniel: Another one I'd love to add, because you and I got connected on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is also a really great way to connect with your employees. It's a great way to start posting content into your thoughts on leadership, your thoughts on the business industry, that personal photo of you and your family.
[00:14:00] So social media is also a really good way to connect with your employees and to build your relationship and your rapport there.
[00:14:09] Richard Ellis: I like that idea a lot because I was just thinking the other day, I try to follow our clients and our executives right in our client accounts and I noticed the pervasive trend as you get to that C level is they tend to just re share.
[00:14:22] The company's posts, right? And then we got an event, we went to, you know, a conference, we had a trade show. Here's an announcement of new product features, and they'll just forward those along, which is good to see them doing that on LinkedIn, I guess, but there's not that human element of what's going on in your life.
[00:14:38] What are you thinking about as you run your business or lead your team or inspire others? Right. And so it would be nice to see some of that from some of those leaders as well.
[00:14:47] Eva Daniel: Yeah, absolutely. And also leaders. Maybe it is having somebody on your team help you kind of think through the content, you know, maybe you don't have time to do all the posting, but really just thinking through of, Hey, how can I connect with people?
[00:14:58] And again, it doesn't have to be huge things, but what would it look like maybe once a week to write one of your own posts that maybe it's a little bit more personal, a little bit more of what you're thinking about leadership wise and putting it on there so that your employees can engage with you.
[00:15:12] Richard Ellis: I love that.
[00:15:13] We've talked a lot about what to do in terms of being more likable and building rapport. Is there a danger of over rotating and doing too much or do you have any kind of quick tips on what not to do? What doesn't work or what is going too far with the humor or trying to be likable too hard?
[00:15:32] Eva Daniel: Yeah, I think one thing that can definitely happen with, especially since we've been framing this a little bit on that new leader that steps up is trying to have other people go too deep with you before they are ready to share that, you know, you need to build a relationship before you try to start going too deep.
[00:15:47] We've already talked about it a little bit, but a big miss is not knowing people's names. And that sounds so. Obviously, you know, but it's like Dale Carnegie said years ago and how to win friends and influence people that our name is the sweetest sound in any language. People love being called by name that you can pronounce their name.
[00:16:05] If you have a hard to say name, you and I both have easy names to say Richard and Eva, but even my name, sometimes people are like, is it Eva? Is it? I was like, no, it's Eva. Using your employees names, knowing their names, knowing who's on your team. I think another big don't. Is underestimating how much good relationships with people on your team matter and how much good communication, just not investing enough time or energy into how you're communicating, working on your public speaking skills to become a more dynamic communicator.
[00:16:37] Because it is easy to get really caught in the days in the days out, especially if you're at a new company where you're learning a lot. Of new systems and a lot of new strategies and a lot of new people and all of the things. But really, I think a big miss is just not taking the time to really intentionally focus on it is a big one.
[00:16:55] Richard Ellis: Great practical tips. The idea of, I think I mentioned it last time, being intentional about building rapport, right? About. Making sure that you're coming across as a real person that cares about others. Cause I know everybody does, right? But they don't always come across like they do because they've got their agenda.
[00:17:14] They've got to get ducks in a row and make change if they're a new leader, etc. And so I think this gives us a lot to think about to humanize the effort a little bit and relate better to the, to the people and their employees, etc.
[00:17:26] Eva Daniel: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:17:27] Richard Ellis: Well, before we wrap up, because we're about at the end of our time, is there anything we didn't cover that just comes to mind in the area of rapport or likability that you want to mention?
[00:17:37] Eva Daniel: One thing I didn't cover that I think is really important is practicing active listening and asking better questions, you're going to get better answers. It's open ended, it's asking questions and even having some go to questions if you are say at a networking event or you are meeting new people, having some go to questions.
[00:17:57] And I sometimes find for myself a couple of the ones if I'm, for example, at a conference where people are coming from all over the country, like, Oh, where'd you come in from? Because I've traveled personally really extensively in the United States, I've been everywhere but North Dakota and Alaska. I have a story for every state and I have the story for the two states of why I haven't been.
[00:18:14] So if I'm in a conference, that's a go to question. Where did you come in from? Because I know wherever they've come in from, I'll probably have a story from the state. Oh my gosh, when I was in Cincinnati, what's up with the chili? Whatever, fill in the blank. But having some go to questions and everyone, because I do love stories so much, another go to question I use is Oh, wow.
[00:18:32] It sounds like you've had a really interesting life. Have you ever thought of writing a book? I find that people have very strong opinions whether or not they've thought of writing a book. Either they have a book that's on their computer that they've been writing about their life that they want to tell you about, they actually have written a book, or they've never thought about it and they have lots of reasons why, or either way, they're going to kind of feel a little complimented that you thought their life was interesting enough to write a book about.
[00:18:55] Um, so like those are just a couple of go to questions I have. You need to find your own go to questions, but having some go to questions that you can ask, they are going to breed some more interesting answers rather than, Oh, what do you do? Or what's your, you know, day to day? I mean, maybe they're interested in that, but if you can get people on their passion point, that can really breed some good conversation.
[00:19:13] And then you're not only asking interesting. open ended questions. You're also practicing active listening. You're not just listening, waiting for your turn to talk, listening to get to that person that looks more interesting over their shoulder. You're actually listening to what they're saying, responding off of it, asking follow up question.
[00:19:31] And you're also a big tip I learned in my years of radio. You're also listening for emotion. So. If they start getting really animated, even just saying something like, wow, you seem to be really excited about public speaking. Have you always been that way? Or, wow, it sounds like you get really fired up about politics.
[00:19:51] You know, but just listening for that emotion and doing a follow up comment, a follow up question can really go a long way in becoming a better conversationalist.
[00:20:00] Richard Ellis: That's a real good reminder to think about the emotional. Side of things as an engineer by education and kind of a process oriented guy.
[00:20:08] Sometimes I don't think about the softer things, right. Or the emotions or like the last time we talked, you talked about, you know, how do stories or presentations not only make you think, but make you feel right. And I just don't naturally go there.
[00:20:21] Eva Daniel: A lot of people don't, you know, we tend to be a lot more tactical, linear.
[00:20:24] I have to ask Richard, do you have any go to questions that you ask at networking events? And
[00:20:29] Richard Ellis: that's a good question. I haven't been prepared of here's my top two or three. Favorite, but just out of interest, I am interested in where people are from, right? Because we serve clients all over. Let's
[00:20:40] Eva Daniel: be honest, Richard.
[00:20:40] You want any excuse you can to talk about Texas A& M?
[00:20:43] Richard Ellis: Well that is a good one. I mean,
[00:20:45] Eva Daniel: that is probably a good go to for you.
[00:20:47] Richard Ellis: What is your college football team? Of choice, right? That's a good one. And we can talk about that. I try to stay from professional football because even though Cowboys are my team, I don't like the Cowboys anymore and what they've become.
[00:21:00] That's a sore
[00:21:01] Eva Daniel: subject. See, if I was at a networking event, I'd be like, sore subject, let's change topics. You
[00:21:05] Richard Ellis: seem to be really upset
[00:21:06] Eva Daniel: by that. Let's change topics.
[00:21:08] Richard Ellis: Another one that's always interesting is what they've done prior to their current job, right? And so a lot of times people have really interesting backgrounds.
[00:21:16] They were an editor or they were, you know, a marketer and now they're in sales or they were in high tech and now they're in industrial. I found some really interesting people with interesting backgrounds that if I hadn't asked, I wouldn't have known about. We got to have a great discussion about it.
[00:21:30] Eva Daniel: Yeah, that's great. Well, and I have to say you're a great conversationalist. You've asked great questions. I've talked about myself most of the time, so you're doing great on your conversation skills. Awesome.
[00:21:38] Richard Ellis: Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Always looking to get better and so excited to get to know you for sure.
[00:21:44] Last time you gave us some goodness in terms of a book. Anything different you want to share today? Do you have a gadget, a hobby, a pastime that just brings a little joy into your life?
[00:21:54] Eva Daniel: Well, I am a mom of four kids ranging in age from three up to 12 last season's been really fun because my 10 and 12 year old boys and I are watching both Survivor and Summit which is you know, the everyday people trying to scale this, you know, New Zealand mountain And I had not personally watched Survivor in like 15 years.
[00:22:14] I applied for the show a couple times in like my mid 20s. It's been a long time since I've even watched the show, but it's been really fun to watch that show with my oldest two boys. And so that's been just kind of a fun, lighthearted change of pace kind of content for me. And so that's been really fun.
[00:22:30] Richard Ellis: I love that. We're big Survivor fans.
[00:22:32] Eva Daniel: Have you ever applied to be on the show? I realized this season that I would be the old person on the show. You know, when I applied a couple of times in the past, it was like the mid twenties. And then I was watching this most recent season and it's like, okay, there's one woman in her fifties, but like the people in their forties are like the old people on the show now.
[00:22:48] And you're like, oh, oh my.
[00:22:50] Richard Ellis: Yeah. I'm older than that. So yeah, I'm well past the prime of contestant there. Yeah, I came close a couple times. I thought it would be a really cool challenge. I've always been athletic and into all of that kind of stuff. And I think I'm a pretty strategic thinker. So I always like to think about myself, but I also know that I get
[00:23:08] Eva Daniel: real hangry.
[00:23:09] Like, when I don't have enough food or enough sleep, like. Not the best side of me comes out. And I feel like that's the biggest part of the challenge is they don't ever focus as much about how they're like not eating much. And I'm like, Oh my goodness. I don't know. Who knows, Richard, maybe in a year or two, we'll both apply and we'll be the old people on the show.
[00:23:26] And one of us, we should do
[00:23:27] Richard Ellis: that. Yes. And we can form an alliance. Yes, we
[00:23:31] Eva Daniel: can. Let's, we'll just pre plan it now. We'll get on the same tribe, form an alliance and help each other win.
[00:23:36] Richard Ellis: I'm in let's do it. Thanks again for your time today. I know you're busy and we really appreciate having you on the podcast.
[00:23:42] Eva Daniel: Great. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so fine.
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