Darin Archer - Episode 14
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[00:00:00] Richard Ellis: Research indicates that the more senior your position, the more you must rely on relationships to move your initiatives and your career forward. And in terms of driving revenue growth, it's paramount that product leaders develop healthy relationships with the marketing leader and the sales leader. So let's get to some relationship building goodness.
[00:00:28] Welcome to some goodness where we engage seasoned business leaders and experts to share practical guidance and tips to help new and aspiring C level leaders maximize their impact. My guest today is Darren Archer, seasoned product marketing expert and current chief product officer for Yota, a cloud platform company that provides e commerce acceleration solutions.
[00:00:50] Darren, welcome. Glad to have you back. Good to be here again, Richard. Thank you. Last time we talked about, you know, bridging gaps between product and sales. One of the common themes I've noticed in working with many companies across many industries is that high performing organizations tend to have an executive leadership team that's well aligned.
[00:01:09] Have shared accountabilities, a healthy respect for each other. So in the spirit of that today, I'd love to pick your brain about developing great relationships with sales and marketing and specifically the sales leader and the marketing leader, because I've seen you do that. Well, let's start with your perspective on why is it important to build those relationships?
[00:01:30] Darin Archer: I think the first and foremost is probably that hard lesson that not everyone will have to learn on their own, but I certainly have in my career. And that is that, uh, sometimes your great ideas are not so great. And I think as a product manager or product leader, we come up with stuff. Sometimes we get it funded, we build it and it flops.
[00:01:50] Uh, and it can be a small feature or it can be a whole product. And if it's a whole product, hopefully you haven't had that experience your career, but on the same token, it's probably going to make you a much stronger product leader. Um, but that kind of goes back to this concept of, I think from a product side of the fence, there's still this field of dreams mentality, right?
[00:02:06] If I build it, they will come. For those of you who've seen that movie, and it's just not even close to true, right? And I, you know, we, we can all see out there in the market, a plethora of products, particularly in the software space, because it's such a lower barrier to entry to write software and deliver software to market than say, build hard goods or clothing or something.
[00:02:26] Transcribed Although all those are getting simpler too. And I think the same mistakes now that we have in software passing along to the apparel industry and other places that are 3d printing garbage. Right. But it's, that's the first thing is like, you know, just because you built something and just because you think it's great, it's not going to land.
[00:02:42] And so the next piece is that. How are you bringing it to market? And that's with marketing and sales, the disciplines of marketing and sales and those functions. But those functions come to life through their leaders as well. And so I think you have to start with the acknowledgement that from a product leader perspective, all of your KPIs are team scores.
[00:03:06] That score doesn't go up on the scoreboard unless it's well executed by each of those departments. And it's not well executed unless they're well enabled and, and you have candidly, I think, good relationships. Right. And it doesn't always mean you're happy with each other or in love with each other, right, but it's that you're able to work through when things aren't landing.
[00:03:24] And at the same time, when you're introducing something that you think is fun and new, you're able to get them on board and rally all of the troops. Right. So yeah, I have definitely found. That you can't just say, well, I'm the product person and I did the homework and I built this great product and I'm tossing it out there for, and you all just failed if it doesn't turn into a ton of great sales.
[00:03:45] Right. So I think it's just starting with that. It's not build the dreams and you get to build some relationships there to bring it to life.
[00:03:51] Richard Ellis: That's an awesome perspective. I love the humility in that and the self awareness, right? And I think many people can benefit from, from that insight. Most of our sponsors of our work in my world are sales leaders or marketing leaders.
[00:04:06] And I've had some that they highly respect and value the input from the product leader. And then I've had some that think they're a bozo, right? And a lot of it comes from this idea that they know everything, right? Yeah, but they're not very. Sales are marketing savvy, but they're an excellent technologist or a product expert, right?
[00:04:26] And I think it's healthy to have some shared accountability. Like you said, we all are aiming for the same team metrics, if you will. And a little bit of a push and pull there where we learn from each other. I've seen you engage in real time with sales leaders and have some really good challenging but productive conversations.
[00:04:47] And so I'd love to just kind of get your tips, just some quick practical tips on. Establishing those good, healthy relationships with each of sales leaders and marketing leaders. And let's start with just sales first. If we could have two or three takeaways of, Hey, this I've found to work well.
[00:05:05] Darin Archer: Yeah. The two things that helped me and really acknowledging that the jokes about the ego there is just working on acknowledging your ego and letting it go.
[00:05:16] Right. And so I always start with the first one being acknowledging that that sales leader. Through their team has a lot of market insight and feedback for you. I think where, where the rub happens is a lot of times all of us, regardless of our role, whether it's, you know, in, in our home with our family or in work environments, we often just by nature, bring back problems as the solution.
[00:05:42] Right. That's just kind of, I think the human nature thing. So I think in this immediate space. The challenge with that is on the one hand you have the product side that thinks that they've got the answers to everything and you've got the sales side that's like out there testing all that and hitting that pavement and it either lands or doesn't, but when it comes back as the, well, this is the problem I found in the form of you need to change this, or we need this, we're missing this feature, or the pricing's not right, or all those traditional cliches.
[00:06:14] And the first tip I give to myself that I actually think about and sometimes even prepare for before I had that call is going, okay, there's something behind each of those ideas. The idea may not be the right idea, but the problem still exists that created that tension, right? Whether they say, ah, this is too expensive, I can't get anyone to buy it.
[00:06:34] Or there's feature gaps and no one's going to buy this because you didn't build this thing, right? Stop and go to the next click and go, well, what was the thing that they raised? Right? What, where's the rub? Right. And I think it's then fleshing out those objectives and going from there. So that's the first piece is just finding a way to get yourself through the ego and then building some skills.
[00:06:53] I think to have that inquisitive mindset, I've actually coached folks on my team over the years. And I'll say things like, Hey. You kind of have to learn to be a journalist and you have to let go of what you think about what the person is saying in that you're interviewing and you have to be kind of forensic with it too because you have to use some of these methods like the five whys and things with your own folks as well to get past that first friction point where everyone just thinks they have the answer.
[00:07:20] Peel back that onion, get to the root causes. And then I think once you get there, then the second thing is just remember. That will really two parts. I always coach on one is this person or group of people, you need to understand what they're finding so that you can come up collectively with a better answer.
[00:07:36] Right. But also that they have to, so I, I remind, try to remind myself to turn my, my team. Like. You know, the, the, it's horrible metaphor in this day and age, we often use the, you know, soldiers and going to battle and things like that. But I do think about it in that way. Like when you have a field team, I may be the better analogy of something would be using sports, you know, You're putting them out on the team like if it's American football and make sure they got pads and a good helmet, right?
[00:08:07] Because otherwise you didn't do your job and they're gonna just get beaten up and spit out So it's that mindset of like hey you get to go back to your office, right? And they've got to go out and actually then try to land things again And a lot of them sometimes it can feel like maybe the sport is boxing right and they're just going out for you On your behalf, the sales leader and with their team, and then the market either rewards them and accepts them or beats them up and sends them back to you.
[00:08:35] Right. So, you know, I use that in my head to kind of go just because you don't agree with maybe a solution or idea, like there's something there. And at the end of it, you want them to be successful out on that playing field and doing really well.
[00:08:48] Richard Ellis: That's really great. So you just gave us three practical tips there.
[00:08:51] One is lower the ego and try not to be defensive, right? To be curious and forensic to dig under the covers and find the root causes of the problem that they're really trying to address. And then three, realize that whether we agree with that problem or not, or the idea or not, our sellers are still having to face those pushbacks in the field.
[00:09:12] So how can we help them overcome that? Love that. And I think doing all three of those will heighten the respect of a product leader with the sales leader. Let's pivot over to the marketing leader. So little bit different engagement, different focus of conversations that happen with marketing. What comes to mind there?
[00:09:31] Darin Archer: So I lean heavily on some experience that I had on an e commerce team years ago, where we were just introducing. A B testing. And it was in the period of time where there was not a lot of companies able to experiment on their websites. And they, they did, they were very sophisticated and sometimes we're using things like load balancers to direct traffic to different versions of the websites.
[00:09:55] It was a very expensive endeavor. And then of course, in the modern times where now it's, it should be your basic motion, right? So I remember. Going through specifically that era and having a CMO once that absolutely refused to test anything and it got to the point where a lot of stuff that came from the traditional HIPAA approach, right?
[00:10:18] Highest paid person in the room, uh, making the call wasn't landing, wasn't performing well. And the team I was on, we actually took it so far as to find out and realize later on that the executives all had dedicated IP addresses at the company. And so it was pretty easy that we could actually just make the website look like what she wanted to see.
[00:10:40] And then the team began to. A B test, lots of other things, both the look and feel of stuff as well as calls to action, messaging, this and that. But the net result was we came out of it. And a year later, she saw the value of the team, but the small team things that they did, they had a massive return on the results.
[00:10:58] But what it really helped me come back with was that on the marketing side, let go, let marketing do their job. That's I think the biggest. Feedback point is just, let's get out of this paradigm where it's like, okay, I built this thing and it has to be spoken about or mentioned exactly this way. Right.
[00:11:19] We're not introducing some star on stage, like it's just, and guess what? Even those introductions of those stars on stage, depending on where they are in the world, those introductions change a little bit to accommodate the audience and the location and things like that. So I think the big piece of recommendation I have is.
[00:11:38] Lean in hard on a test and learn culture, right? You obviously have to have some starting point and framework, but don't be afraid to let the team experiment and try new things because the marketing team has so much potential in really quickly refining core messaging, how to present a capability or feature, what really lands with specific audiences.
[00:11:58] And they can do that because the digital channel is inexpensive. It's fast. It's cheap to change. It's not like in the old days in software or in other industries that might struggle where. They have to put together a lot of physical collateral, things have to go to the printers and get laminated or this or that.
[00:12:13] We're not in that era, right? Almost everything's digital. And so you can quickly AB test things and come out the other end. So that's just my biggest finding is just acknowledge that marketing has got some incredible potential and competencies today that maybe they didn't in the past, uh, let them run.
[00:12:30] Let them run. Sure.
[00:12:33] Richard Ellis: And as you think about. Marketing, A B testing campaigns and lead gen efforts and things of that nature, positioning and messaging, uh, man, what wonderful insight to feed back into product and from a product leader to say, Hey, this is very helpful. Thank you. Let's partner on this and let's test some of these things before you even have to build some of those resonates.
[00:12:58] Great collaboration, right? And great benefit for the company overall. That's good. One final question that I wanted to get to and that is those who know me and have worked with me know I use this word a lot and I'm not ashamed. It's intentionality. Because I just find, you know, happenstance and winging it just doesn't lead to repeatable results.
[00:13:18] And so When we think about intentionality in terms of collaborating and building strong relationships with sales and marketing, are there specific meetings or interactions or frequency that you try to drive to make sure that you're keeping those silos at bay, right? And you're driving that tighter alignment.
[00:13:41] Darin Archer: Yeah, so one of the things that, that I have adopted a long time ago, and, uh, I think, I think I can claim the idea, but I know it's broadly used, but, uh, I don't remember anyone to attribute to, but was that for all of us independent departments, there's just so many different perspectives, and that's a good thing.
[00:14:01] But an organization can generally quickly focus on just the perspectives of top leaders. And so I like to think about my engagement with sales and marketing is not just with my peer, but I'm focusing on building some relationships at different levels and making sure that I understand. Hey, that person that's got to write a ton of copy over and over again for demand gen activities and keeping the blog alive and trying to put out a lot of wonderful thought leadership and things like that, engage with them as well.
[00:14:32] Right. And if nothing more than to have some sounding board kind of conversations or this, that I think that's really important. So for me, it's, it's thinking about levels as well and going my engaging with the organization. Not just my friend and my peer that I might have built a fantastic team relationship with, right?
[00:14:52] So I always try to think through that, and sometimes systematically, and I think about who might I have kind of a monthly coffee talk with, so to speak, or some water cooler time. The other thing that I have turned on and off at various times when I feel there's a need is If the dissonance feels really high and you can just tell that there's a lot of tension and misunderstandings, even in this era, which is the hard era of with hybrid workforces and people have to jump into, you know, video calls and things like that, but I try to create some artificial water cooler time or old school office hours, right?
[00:15:31] Because I can have a great relationship or collaboration with my peers and there's natural meetings that occur for that, right? Executive team meetings, etc. But that will only give me the, a filtered view too, so like I try to create some space for others to come to me as best as I can. And it's hard in a larger corporation.
[00:15:50] With a big title, you know, folks are going to be not necessarily wanting to engage in those forums or go to you. So sometimes you got to proactively reach out. And I kind of try to find folks at different levels and build some rapport over time. Maybe it starts with a conference. That you're both at, and then you do periodic check ins with them to say, Hey, how do you think this is landing?
[00:16:09] You know, we have out there, things like that. So that's how I've gone about it is try to be systematic on the levels and some engagement touch points, create some open door spots as best you can. Also can be as simple as channels in your chat tool, things like that. But that's a similar to how I look at getting market feedback, right.
[00:16:30] And segmenting the market and making sure, do I have the right All of my industries and geographies and psychographic components of my ICP covered in my feedback. Am I also talking to different folks with different tasks? You know, cause the person on the marketing team, for example, that is. Focused on outbound and your ads and the return on ad spend and the managing has, you Different observations and data than the person that might be working on webinars, some collateral that goes out to market in another way.
[00:16:59] So I think he's got to get feedback from a lot of different sources.
[00:17:03] Richard Ellis: I love it. That's great. That's great. And when we think about last time we were together, we talked about time strategy, and so this kind of goes into an extension of that saying, okay, if we need to spend this amount of time with these stakeholders or on these topics, how do I then map that out?
[00:17:20] And where do those. Uh, discussions tend to happen, right? Should I have my team participate in QBRs for example, or sit in on periodic pipeline reviews just to see some wind loss and what's happening. Right. And so there's a lot of kind of meetings that traditionally we say those are sales focused or campaign strategy discussions.
[00:17:39] That's marketing focused, but thinking intentionally about some of those and say, Hey, should we sit in occasionally? Maybe not all the time. To really kind of close some of those gaps, offer some collaboration, and then, to your point, gain some valuable insight.
[00:17:53] Darin Archer: Yeah, those formal meetings, I think, are pretty critical.
[00:17:56] As you talked about that, I felt a little bit nervous and uneasy because I've had this reminder in my head, that feedback from the past, where it's hard to figure out where to justify putting the time, right? And I think, uh, You know, does it make sense to have a product manager or a number of product managers sitting on a weekly pipeline call?
[00:18:16] Maybe not weekly. No, I think there is value in, in finding ways to engage with some of those cadence calls and whatnot. And when I say engage, I mean, really active listening. I don't mean just, Oh, you got invited to the call. So you're going to work on something else and it's running in the background. You know, what I try to do in those is like, Hey, I'm not necessarily there for the purpose of the call and playing a role for the purpose of the call, but I'm there in leaning in from a sense and learn perspective as best as I can.
[00:18:46] Like, I'm just, I'm trying to listen to something. You know, the sales manager might be on that call to review the sales methods being applied, certain things that need to be done at a certain phase. And you know, they have a different orientation to what they're doing on the call. What I'm listening for is just things that might give me clues that, Hey, this is not landing or Hey, this keeps coming up and they're not even noticing the pattern or problem yet.
[00:19:11] But I'm realizing. This feature is not fitting well, something's going on there. And so then I might have a clue to go dig in or drive along on something else. I will say though, that I feel like I'm on an island on that belief. And I've had bosses that yanked me out of those calls. I've had friends and colleagues in engineering and product management that are kind of like, you're too much out with the field team and this and that.
[00:19:34] You know? So if anything, I feel like I probably over indexed there and maybe it's cause I've had a lot of products over time that are usually fairly new things that then the market doesn't know what to do with them, but I feel like it's better practice that more of my peers need to adopt and I'd say push it down as well.
[00:19:53] To your point, like, does it make sense maybe weekly? I don't know, but it could be the simple as rotate a product manager in for maybe a quarter and have them sit on the calls for a quarter. But there is so much insight that happens in some of those cadence calls, right? And there is a function of those calls that is very different than what the product team would pick up on because of their agendas.
[00:20:14] But I think if you go at it from the angle of you're building rapport, you're, you got engagement. It means that. When there is a hard sale or a hard deal that you, you know, you've had some more touch points with the team. And so you're going to feel like they're going to feel like you're more in the loop and at the same time, you're getting a better perspective.
[00:20:33] That's great.
[00:20:33] Richard Ellis: Yeah. To your point, there's probably not one answer that fits every situation and every company, but. Maybe we should ask the question, should I be involved in some of these situations, these meetings, or should I, and just be intentional about that decision. Always love chatting with you and catching up and learning a few things, sharing some goodness both ways.
[00:20:53] Let's wrap up with something off topic real quick. Do you have a website, a resource, a book that you read recently, a vacation that inspired you that you want to mention?
[00:21:04] Darin Archer: Well, on the vacation side, it's more of a look forward. So this is one of my big annual trips is to where I grew up in Montana and get excited about getting out to some country activities, playing in the river with kids, uh, you know, doing some fly fishing and just getting outdoors.
[00:21:21] So that's my biggest thing, but I will say it connects to. Those brief moments where I also have to figure out, you just reminded me, what am I going to read on vacation? And what, what should I take a look at? So it's a good little tip there, but that's what I'm looking forward
[00:21:36] Richard Ellis: to. That sounds great.
[00:21:37] Getting away from technology, getting back to nature outside again. Love it. Well, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for your time today and we will talk soon. Thanks Richard.
[00:21:50] Announcer: Some Goodness is a creation of Revenue Innovations. Visit us at revenueinnovations. com and subscribe to our newsletter.
