SG Podcast - episode 20
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[00:00:00] Richard Ellis: According to Harvard Business Review editor Amy Gallo, 80 percent of people say they work with at least one terrible coworker. Another study found that 94 percent of employees have worked with a toxic person in the past five years. And according to Gallup, 50 percent of Americans have left a job to get away from their manager.
[00:00:20] Richard Ellis: Difficult people are everywhere, and avoiding them isn't an option. But what if leaders could turn these challenging interactions into opportunities for growth, clarity, and even trust? Today, we'll explore how to navigate tough conversations, set boundaries, and build stronger teams in the process.
[00:00:40] Richard Ellis: Welcome to Some Goodness, where we engage seasoned business leaders and experts to share practical guidance and tips to help new and future C level leaders maximize their impact. My guest today is Jack Galloway. A seasoned executive, leadership expert, and consultant who spent over two decades helping to build Ramsey Solutions alongside Dave Ramsey.[00:01:00]
[00:01:00] Richard Ellis: Jack has spent his career solving the toughest leadership problem, people. Whether growing high performing teams, handling conflict, or guiding leaders through difficult decisions, he has seen it all. His ability to understand both sides of a conflict and help people find common ground is what makes him a sought after advisor for business leaders today.
[00:01:21] Richard Ellis: Well, Jack, welcome to the show.
[00:01:23] Jack Galloway: Thank you, Richard. It's an honor to be with you today.
[00:01:26] Richard Ellis: I'm really excited to kind of just get your perspectives into, you know, this topic of tough people, tough conversations, you know, things that, you know, a lot of times we tend to avoid. And so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll just kick it off by asking, uh, you know, I've heard you say that avoiding difficult conversations almost always makes the problem worse.
[00:01:50] Richard Ellis: And, you know, at the high level, that kind of makes sense. But tell me more about what you mean by that.
[00:01:55] Jack Galloway: Richard, I've learned this the hard way. The reason I know it to be so true is because [00:02:00] I've done it so many times. And, uh, I like people. I like people to be happy. I love for a team to have harmony. And as a young leader.
[00:02:09] Jack Galloway: I just felt like if I just didn't create the conflict, that everybody would be happy. They would get along. They would do their work. It would be on time. And that's how it would go. And that's not at all how it went. And so, uh, I used to get. Physically ill anytime I had to deal with a strong personality person, a difficult person, a problem that nobody else wanted to deal with.
[00:02:35] Jack Galloway: And it took me a while to learn how to use my own personality style, along with some practice and some pro tips that we can talk about here today that really helped me to up my game when it came to Dealing with difficult situations, difficult people, and to have a lot more confidence and have better outcomes.
[00:02:57] Richard Ellis: I like that a lot and I can certainly resonate [00:03:00] with, um, you know, this idea of just wanting to avoid conflict, right? I'm naturally an optimistic guy and, you know, those just aren't fun conversations to have. I'd rather talk about the fun stuff and the good stuff, uh, and recognize the goodness in others.
[00:03:16] Richard Ellis: And so I tend to, you know, see what you're saying where if I'm not careful, I'll avoid. Some of those, uh, as you think about, you know, just other leaders and, uh, people that you've worked with, are there any kind of trends that, you know, beyond just, Hey, I know this is going to be, you know, either ugly or difficult or uncomfortable, that, uh, they kind of lead to us avoiding these conversations in the first place that we need to just be careful about.
[00:03:43] Jack Galloway: Well, I find that first, I find that the majority of the population simply just does not deal well with conflict in any part of their life, including in the workplace. There's fear. There's fear that it's gonna go horribly wrong. Uh, they don't [00:04:00] know how to do it the right way. So there's Fear that it's going to go wrong.
[00:04:04] Jack Galloway: And there's a lack of just skill and experience on the right way to do it, to have a positive outcome. And so what we often end up doing, it's just kind of putting it off until tomorrow, telling ourselves it'll probably get better on its own, telling ourselves they're not that bad of a person. They're not, you know, that horribly wrong in their approach.
[00:04:28] Jack Galloway: And we just make excuses to ourselves as leaders. All along, not knowing that our team is over here watching us as leaders and we're losing influence day by day with our own teams, because we don't have the courage, the backbone and the skill required to handle difficult situations with a positive outcome.
[00:04:52] Richard Ellis: I think that's really smart. Uh, and just recognizing that, especially if you're a second or third level leader, you've [00:05:00] got other managers and leaders below you looking. At you right and observing what you're doing. And so this is one of those cases where we really do need to lead by example.
[00:05:10] Jack Galloway: Yes.
[00:05:11] Richard Ellis: Well, uh, I know I've heard in some of your training sessions that you've mentioned that, you know, the hardest part is the first conversation, just getting started.
[00:05:18] Richard Ellis: So what, what practical tips do you have about how do you bring it up? How do you get it off on the right foot?
[00:05:25] Jack Galloway: Well, part of the reason that I have learned that this is, if you get this. Part right. This is like one of the cornerstones of the foundation of having a successful experience with any conflict whatsoever, is to have it soon.
[00:05:42] Jack Galloway: Because when you sit down with someone and something happened 10 days ago, our memories are not that great as exactly what happened. They're a little bit surprised that we're having a conversation about anything that happened 10 days ago. They feel a little [00:06:00] bit. Taken off guard a little bit insulted that, that you've waited this long, sort of like you've held this in your pocket for just the right moment to come and surprise me with.
[00:06:12] Jack Galloway: And so we end up waiting and waiting and waiting, but if we'll have it soon, certain things happen that sort of almost get us off to a good start. One is there's not a lot of time for fear to build up. There's not a lot of time for. Uh, anger or bitterness for me as the leader. There's not a lot of time for me to really start going, you know what?
[00:06:37] Jack Galloway: I think Richard meant to do that. Richard does that all like, there's just not as much time. And so when I tell leaders to have it soon, I mean, as soon as is practically. So if I'm sitting in a meeting with someone and Heather over here is on her phone, the whole meeting, she's checked out of the meeting.
[00:06:59] Jack Galloway: [00:07:00] She's not paying attention. She came in late. She's, and it's just drawing away from the productivity of our meeting. As much as I dread it, I have already told myself that meeting's over, I'm going to ask her to hang back for three minutes and us just have a Quick conversation for me to ask what's going on.
[00:07:23] Jack Galloway: I'm not gonna accuse her of what's going on. There may be a death in her family. There may be something where she needs to leave the meeting and, and is much more important than what we're doing. But if I won't wait too long, I won't let all these stories build up in my head. And I can just ask her what's going on and find out.
[00:07:43] Jack Galloway: And I can address if it was simply, she just checked out, just not having a good day at work. I can just address kind of how that affects everybody else on the team. And that I rather her do it a different way. And I can explain what that is. It didn't come [00:08:00] across super heavy. It didn't feel like I had. To give that a lot of thought and it's off my to do list.
[00:08:07] Jack Galloway: It never even made it on my to do list. I just handled it. And you know what? With a lot of people, a quick verbal connection like that will solve a lot of problems before they get worse.
[00:08:20] Richard Ellis: Really good. So the big tip, as soon as you practically can, after the event or the situation, have that conversation.
[00:08:29] Richard Ellis: And then you mentioned something subtle there that I wanted to dig into is, um, not only does that not give you time to fester and get bitter or make assumptions, but you also mentioned, hey, you're not going to come in with a preconceived notion. You're going to ask her, you know, what's going on, and it could be a death in the family or something going on.
[00:08:50] Richard Ellis: Um, and so that, that level of just approach, tell me a little bit about, you know, how you start that conversation with that kind of approach.
[00:08:59] Jack Galloway: [00:09:00] One of the things that I always try to do when I'm having a, what I call a difficult conversation is to be curious and curious to me means I'm not predetermining what's going on.
[00:09:13] Jack Galloway: I don't know what's going on. All I know is what I observed. It's going to affect my body language. It's going to affect the tone of my voice. It's going to affect the words that I choose. And I can simply come in and ask questions. I can say, Richard, this is what I've noticed. It feels like you're a little bit off lately.
[00:09:32] Jack Galloway: Like you're, you're late on some things. Your numbers aren't what they used to be. You're don't seem as, uh, excited to be at work as you normally are. And I just wonder. Be as your leader, just stop and go, Hey, is everything okay? Is there something I can help with? Is this just a season we're going through, but I can just open the floor for you to say, well, actually.
[00:09:56] Jack Galloway: There is something going on and it could be professional. It [00:10:00] could be personal. It could be, Hey Jack, I'm not getting along with my new leader that you just moved me to. He's not very prepared. We're not getting along. I don't know what I'm doing and it's really thrown me off my game. So it could be a lot of different things.
[00:10:16] Jack Galloway: And so I really don't feel like it's the right thing for me to do. by accusing or predetermining what this behavior means. It is my job to ask.
[00:10:28] Richard Ellis: I like that a lot because I can picture just being on the receiving end. Uh, that just says, Hey, you care about me. Just that approach. You care what's going on and what's going on may have led to, you know, some poor behavior decisions or, you know, Different activity or being off my game.
[00:10:45] Richard Ellis: Um, so I liked that a lot. So, you know, address it as quickly as possible, come at it with curiosity and empathy. Um, and that kind of leads me to another thing that I've heard you talk about, which is just this balance of [00:11:00] candidness. With, uh, with being kind and just a quick story. I was consulting with a client a few years back and they were really proud of the fact that they, you know, part of their culture was radical candor.
[00:11:15] Richard Ellis: Right. But when I got to know them, It wasn't just being frank, but that radical candor was coming across as really kind of, you know, I wouldn't say as far as toxic, but it was leaning in that direction. It just, it wasn't as constructive of feedback as I think they were hoping or thinking, right? Uh, so that kind of takes me back to your candor and candidness, but being kind.
[00:11:40] Richard Ellis: Um, tell me more.
[00:11:43] Jack Galloway: Kind of playing off what you were talking about. I find that a lot of people swing the pendulum to one side or the other. They're either so kind that they never deliver any clarity about what's wrong and what needs to change, or they're so heavy handed and so [00:12:00] frank and so abrupt that they throw the other person off to where they're really not able to communicate.
[00:12:07] Jack Galloway: In a professional and clear way. And, and they sort of have a fight or flight response. And neither one of those extremes has ever worked for me. And so I worked, I spent my career 22 years working with Dave Ramsey, who is a good friend of mine and a fantastic leader. And he coined the phrase with me to be unclear is to be.
[00:12:31] Jack Galloway: Unkind and be clear is to be kind. And that just resonated with me, especially with my Enneagram nine peacemaker style, I sometimes was being so kind that I wasn't delivering any clarity. And so my strong personality person who might be a little. Unaware of the problem that they have, they might stroll into my office and I spend so much time telling [00:13:00] them what a good job they're doing.
[00:13:01] Jack Galloway: And then I spend this much time telling them what needs to change that they walk out feeling like they just got a slap on the back, not on the wrist. They're going, Hey, that guy loves me. And I, the leader am thinking, Oh, I've solved this problem. And the next day, the problem just continues on. And so what I have learned.
[00:13:21] Jack Galloway: is that it is most important to be clear. When we say be candid, what we really mean is just to be clear. It's not to take a long time to get to the point. It's not to, uh, decide ahead of time why the problem exists. It is to say, Richard, here's a problem I'm observing. I'd love to talk with you about it.
[00:13:45] Jack Galloway: I'd love for us to find a solution to it. I'm giving you benefit of the doubt in the process. You're feeling that from me. You feel confidence to open up to me because all we really want to do is solve this problem together, whatever it is. [00:14:00] And most of the time we can solve the problem if we'll trust each other and just get to work and roll up our sleeves and solve the problem.
[00:14:08] Jack Galloway: But if I'm not clear as a leader, you are never really given the tools necessary to adjust your behavior, your performance, your attitude, whatever it may be. And so I have learned Really to err on the side. It's not a 50, 50 split of clarity and kindness. It's about a 70 percent weighted on the clarity side, and it's wrapped in a 30 percent kindness blanket.
[00:14:38] Jack Galloway: I can be clear and kind at the same time. If I'm kind without the clarity, I haven't done you any favors. I haven't helped myself as a leader to solve this problem. And we're just going to continue kind of. Chasing our tail until somebody finally just says whatever it is that needed to be said in the first [00:15:00] place,
[00:15:00] Richard Ellis: right?
[00:15:01] Richard Ellis: Right, uh, and you may have done some more damage along the way if it takes a roundabout way to get there But um, yeah, I love that. So clarity Is kindness. Uh, and so even outside of performance reviews or constructive feedback that you may have to give or, or tough conversations, I could just picture, you know, just the stress from lack of clarity and work streams or, you know, jobs or projects.
[00:15:29] Richard Ellis: Right? And so lack of clarity is not good in any case. And I like that you've related it to this, that, and it's actually being kind in the, uh, yeah. In the scheme of, you know, uh, correcting maybe, you know, poor behavior or, uh, or poor performance.
[00:15:48] Jack Galloway: And all too often we, as leaders, we believe that we have been clear when no one else feels that way.
[00:15:57] Jack Galloway: We feel like we have cast a clear vision. We've [00:16:00] cast a clear plan, a clear strategy, some clear goals. We feel like everybody knows exactly what we know and what we're thinking. And then when I sit down with their teams. Very few of them have those things and they go, you know what? I don't know those things.
[00:16:16] Jack Galloway: I've heard bits and pieces, but I don't know where we're going or why we're going there. I don't know what winning looks like. I don't know what my role is exactly. And so a lot of times when we get on the. clarity train. We can ride that thing a long way to where we find a lot of other problems in the business are from confusion and a lack of clarity.
[00:16:41] Jack Galloway: I feel like confusion is one of the most deadly things in a business because not everybody, uh, understands that everybody's confused. And so they just keep it to themselves. They just kind of keep showing up. They kind of keep doing the same thing and we just keep getting what [00:17:00] we've been getting, which is not what we need in order to go win in our business.
[00:17:05] Richard Ellis: That's great. I want to dig into that just a little bit more. And that is, um, what comes to mind is the, um, the busyness and the burdens that managers are under and leaders. And so, I mean, I haven't worked with a sales leadership team that hasn't said we are overburdened with everything we have to go and.
[00:17:28] Richard Ellis: I have going on with the administrative part of the business, this, you know, uh, managing up. And then I'm also supposed to, you know, coach my team and do all these things. Right. And so you could just picture that, you know, for these types of conversations, even if they try to have them quickly, they're just, you know, quick hits.
[00:17:46] Richard Ellis: And, you know, is there anything that you've learned that can, you know, help. Leaders just slow down just a minute, be a little bit more prepared for these conversations to do them. Well,
[00:17:58] Jack Galloway: I would rather see a [00:18:00] business leader do fewer things and do them with success, do them well, and to do many things and do none of them well.
[00:18:10] Jack Galloway: And unfortunately. In a day of busyness, we're all a little bit too afraid to raise our hand and say, I can't do that many things and do them well, which ones do you really want me to get done? Because it comes across as not being a team player, or it comes across as I'm lazy and I don't want to work when we really have confidence.
[00:18:29] Jack Galloway: That's when we really understand what our own capacity is. And I can come to you and go, Richard, I love being here. I love what we're doing. I've got about 170 percent of my capacity right now on my schedule for this week. And it's none of it's going to get done well. What's most important to you as my leader, like if we can only get one thing done this week and done well, what is that?
[00:18:55] Jack Galloway: And I like to start to prioritize that way. If we get to the end [00:19:00] of the week and there is some leftover time and energy, we can apply it to some of these lower priority things. But a sales team is where it shows up the most, because I really like to see a sales team that is very. Singular in its focus.
[00:19:16] Jack Galloway: You could take a great salesperson who's good on a phone or a zoom or teams, and suddenly you put them in doing some administrative duties and their productivity goes from a nine to about a two, right? And all of a sudden we're not ROI ing that person or that position and they're miserable as well. So I really like to keep a sales team.
[00:19:39] Jack Galloway: Working in their strengths, doing fewer things and see what things can I take off their plate that can be done by somebody who is actually good at
[00:19:49] Richard Ellis: them. I like that. So really the responsibility on the managers or leaders to push back to their leadership on saying, Hey, there's only so much I can get [00:20:00] done.
[00:20:00] Richard Ellis: So let's, let's be clear on what that, that, that priority list is.
[00:20:04] Jack Galloway: It can come from either way. I can push it up to my leader, or if you're a great leader, you can pull it out of me. If you're a great leader, it's my favorite way is for me to sit with a person who's a direct report to me and ask them how things are going.
[00:20:19] Jack Galloway: And almost 100 percent of the time, their first answer is going to be fine. Everything's great. And I've got to lead beyond that. I've got to know that's not the whole answer. And I've got to start poking and prodding and asking some specific things. How's that project? How's this new team member? How's that process we talked about coming?
[00:20:41] Jack Galloway: How's that? Timeline we talked about and that's when I'm really going to get some specific Answers and a lot of times that person had really got to build some trust with us in order to level with us But the reason we want to do that is not because we want to accuse them of not working It's [00:21:00] because if we've allowed too many things to get on their plate at one time We can just be sure that none of them are going to get done very well and we're going to end up with a mediocre Result across the board and nobody wins Super Bowls with a mediocre result.
[00:21:17] Richard Ellis: I like that. And I could start to see, you know, the puzzle pieces tying together. If we lead with clarity and we ensure, and we test that with our teams that we are being clear, because as you mentioned earlier, sometimes we're not as clear as we think we're being right, but we make sure everybody's clear.
[00:21:32] Richard Ellis: And then within that clarity of what we need to get done, we help them prioritize the most important pieces. Yes. Then, when it comes time to having some difficult conversations, we've built rapport, we've built trust, uh, and they'll take it, um, you know, with the right, um, kind of the right perspective of we're just trying to execute what we've agreed upon as a priority and part of our clear mission versus a personal [00:22:00] indictment of who they are or, or,
[00:22:02] Jack Galloway: you got it.
[00:22:03] Jack Galloway: I love it.
[00:22:04] Richard Ellis: Well, I want to kind of so this is great and you've just given me just lots of practical tips. You just even as we work with other management teams and leaders to kind of put into practice. But, um, one of the things I know that, you know, is kind of a concern and you tend to think about, well, I'm going to have a really tough conversation.
[00:22:24] Richard Ellis: What is that really going to move the needle? Or are they going to go back and just kind of be a A bad apple across the team and go talk about, you know, their leader and how there are, uh, what, what is the aftermath like, and, and is there anything specific that you have, uh, in terms of guidance for us to ensure that it doesn't turn into just venting, but it actually, you know, has the intended effect.
[00:22:49] Jack Galloway: You know, I have learned Richard that if I have difficult conversations with 10 people. On a regular, consistent basis. With nine of them, [00:23:00] if I will have it early, ask questions, be non judgmental, be clear, point out what I'm seeing, have the courage to tell them what's working and what's not working. Even the toughest character out there.
[00:23:11] Jack Galloway: Wants to engage with a leader that does that because a lot of times they're frustrated They're acting out for some reason and I'm giving them an open place to Talk about that and when you mention venting I'm actually okay with Venting if it leads us somewhere sometimes There are certain people that just need to get something off their chest.
[00:23:36] Jack Galloway: It may be something that happened an hour ago, or sometimes it may be something that happened two liters ago before I was even here. And I may not be able to solve those problems, and I'm okay with that, but if I'll let them clear the air and just get it out. Now, a lot of times we have a neutral place to work from and we can start to follow the same [00:24:00] steps with agreeing on what the problem is agreeing on what the solution might look like.
[00:24:05] Jack Galloway: How do we get from here to there? Is it possible? Are they in the right role? Do they need a different role? Do they need more help, more training, whatever that may be. If we're just looking to solve a problem together and it's not You versus me. It's not fight or flight nine times out of 10 that has a positive outcome.
[00:24:27] Jack Galloway: Even if down the road somewhere, that person is not the person for that job. And sometimes that's what I find out. Sometimes they don't, they're not, they don't have the competence to do that job. The job changed years ago and they, they didn't change with it. And all of a sudden they're living in a digital world and they've got analog mindsets and processes.
[00:24:51] Jack Galloway: And through what we're talking about today, I can even introduce to them the idea that they're in the wrong role without it feeling like it's [00:25:00] something they did wrong, just in a role that's not going to get better. Let's start early. Let's. See if there's something else they might be able to do. Or sometimes it's even just time for a person to end a season with us and start a new season somewhere else.
[00:25:16] Jack Galloway: And believe it or not, Richard, my peers kid me because I get thank you notes in the mail for firing people. When I've done it the right way, when I've done it this way, when I've done it going, Richard, you're miserable in your work. Why wouldn't we go find you something somewhere else that you love and it's fulfilling and make more money.
[00:25:40] Jack Galloway: And six weeks later, I get a note going, thank you for pushing me out of the nest. I'm doing it. I'm happy. And I never would have done it on my own.
[00:25:49] Richard Ellis: That's great. It's just wonderful to think about those positive outcomes, uh, like that, because, you know, uh, in our consulting world, you know, a lot of times we'll define [00:26:00] or redefine roles, uh, for companies.
[00:26:02] Richard Ellis: And we truly do find that sometimes people are in the wrong roles, right. Um, uh, or the role has shift because of the market dynamics or the business dynamics. And suddenly, you know, I was more of a, uh, You know, customer support person, not a seller, but now you're trying to make me into a hunter. I don't like that.
[00:26:20] Richard Ellis: Right. And to have these honest and Frank and clear conversations, uh, can lead to maybe putting them into a different seat. Uh, and I really like what you said, don't necessarily fear venting, right? Sometimes that can be takeaway as well. Well, the last thing I wanted to ask you about is, uh, and you've seen and worked in lots of businesses as have I, and, you know, cultures are different, right?
[00:26:47] Richard Ellis: We see some cultures, you're like, Oh, they have a great culture and others that are like, eh, not so much of a great culture, uh, any tips or guidance that you have for leaders in terms of how do we create a culture [00:27:00] where we're doing these. Things in the right way, right? We're, we're bringing clarity, uh, and clarity is kindness.
[00:27:07] Richard Ellis: And it's not just a phrase of radical candor just to say, yeah, we always speak what's on our mind, but you know, it's done in kindness and in a fruitful way, any takeaways or any, any tips that you have for us,
[00:27:20] Jack Galloway: you know, it takes a little bit of time. It takes a lot more effort than we want it to, but it is well worth it.
[00:27:26] Jack Galloway: And so what I mean by that is, let's say I come in as a new CEO on a team that's got a toxic culture that I didn't create. I can start to do several different things. I can start to talk about what our culture should be from the front of the room. When I'm having a staff meeting virtually or in person or from a stage, I can talk about where are we going from here?
[00:27:50] Jack Galloway: People get excited when things start to move forward and they will begin to let go of the past. Then I can start to do the things we've talked about [00:28:00] today in my one on one Interactions. That's sort of where the magic is, and we've got to know that the things we do in these small group meetings and these one on one meetings are going to get talked about when they go back out and their friend group, they're going to go, Hey, you're not going to believe what Richard just did in our meeting.
[00:28:19] Jack Galloway: Like he blew me away with it. And I'm actually excited about this and they start to spread this. positivity. And so being consistent from the front of the room and in the small group settings are the one on ones, putting your money where your mouth is, being a person of high character. It takes all of these things and you have to be the leader who's up there setting the example.
[00:28:46] Jack Galloway: We've just got to know if we're not doing these things, we should not. expect our teams to do these things. And so we've got to lead by example. Someone has been leading by example. And in [00:29:00] that storyline, it was the CEO that just got fired, right? Created a toxic environment. And that doesn't mean every single person gets to stay.
[00:29:09] Jack Galloway: What it means is we start where we are. We know it's going to take some time. We're patient with our people while we set some boundaries and cast a new vision. We create some excitement and we just be really, really clear with everyone. We come in contact with from the most senior leader on the team to the newest person that just started this week.
[00:29:33] Jack Galloway: We've given them the same level of honesty and excitement. And our team will decide if they're still on the mission that we're on or not. And if they're not, it's okay with me. It, I want them to be happy in what they're doing. And I want us to find people who are really excited to be on our mission. And maybe our mission has [00:30:00] changed.
[00:30:00] Jack Galloway: Maybe someone's been here a long time and, and, and they're no longer on our mission of the future. And I want to give them a way to step off of the train with honor. And there's ways to do that. And so I have found that if we'll do these things consistently, we'll get results. We have to get results as a leader.
[00:30:22] Jack Galloway: We can't do all of these things and lose. If we're the new football coach and we come in and lose every game, it doesn't matter how clear we are in the locker room, the team's not getting excited and neither are the fans, right? We still have to. Lead our organization towards success. But in the midst of doing that, we do all these things that we've talked about here today.
[00:30:45] Jack Galloway: And we start to develop a really strong team that cares about each other, that cares about the work that we're doing. They care about it beyond the paycheck that they're getting. They start to give more effort than they've [00:31:00] ever given before. And all of a sudden it starts to get really fun again.
[00:31:04] Richard Ellis: So well said and a great way to wrap up our time today, which unfortunately we are out of time.
[00:31:12] Richard Ellis: Um, and if you've listened to our other episodes, I S I'm sure you know that I'm going to ask this final question and that is, uh, is there anything outside of having tough conversations or counseling leaders that has brought you a little goodness in your life these days?
[00:31:27] Jack Galloway: You know, I will tell you that.
[00:31:30] Jack Galloway: The thing that has brought me goodness in my life is I've been gone from my career with Ramsey solutions for two years. I led a lot of people. I did these things that we're talking about with a lot of people. I helped some people leave. And what I learned was being on this side of that is if we'll do the things we're talking about while we're in that level of influence in that role, it impacts those people beyond just their jobs.
[00:31:58] Jack Galloway: It impacts them in [00:32:00] their family lives. It makes, it makes, uh, fathers better fathers. It makes mothers better mothers. It makes, uh, people better spouses and it helps them in different areas of their life. And I've learned that. The role is going to end for everyone, unless you die on the job, you're going to leave that role as the leader or as the follower, and I want to do these things in a way so that when I come into contact with that person again, two years after we worked together, two years after we had a hard conversation, maybe two years after I asked them to leave, I can walk up and high five them, give them a hug and, and really be proud of.
[00:32:44] Jack Galloway: The relationship we had on the job and then it can transition to still being friends after the job.
[00:32:51] Richard Ellis: That's so great. Well, if that's not goodness, I don't know what is. And so what a great way to end our show. Really. Thank you again, Jack, for, uh, for your [00:33:00] time today.
[00:33:00] Jack Galloway: Thank you for having me.
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