Episode 28
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Richard Ellis: [00:00:00] Hey friends, Richard here. We're continuing our some goodness birthday celebration by revisiting one of your favorites. Today's episode was not just one of our most listened to, it also delivered the most watched clips on our YouTube channel. Why? Because everyone deals with difficult people. And this conversation with Jack Galloway Hit Home.
Richard Ellis: Jack is a longtime executive leadership expert and consultant. In this episode, he delivers some of the most practical and human advice I've heard on handling conflict, creating clarity, and leading through tough conversations with both courage and kindness. If you've ever avoided a difficult conversation or feared becoming the bad guy when leading through tension, this episode is for you.
Richard Ellis: Here's what to listen for one. The one thing Jack says, every leader must do immediately to prevent a small issue from becoming a toxic one. Two, why clarity is kindness and how to strike the right tone [00:01:00] without sugarcoating or steamrolling. And three, what happens when we confuse being busy with being effective and how to reset priorities that actually lead to trust.
Richard Ellis: We're proud to bring this one back, and if you visit the episode page on our website, you'll get a free companion guide to help you apply these principles in real life. All right, let's hit replay. According to Harvard Business Review editor Amy Gallo, 80% of people say they work with at least one terrible coworker.
Richard Ellis: Another study found that 94% of employees have worked with a toxic person in the past five years, and according to Gallup, 50% of Americans have left a job to get away from their manager. Difficult people are everywhere and avoiding them isn't an option. But what if leaders could turn these challenging interactions into opportunities for growth, clarity, and even trust?
Richard Ellis: Today, we'll explore how to navigate tough conversations, set boundaries, and build stronger teams in the process. [00:02:00] Welcome to some goodness where we engage seasoned business. Leaders and experts to share practical guidance and tips to help new and future C-level leaders maximize their impact. My guest today is Jack Galloway, a seasoned executive leadership expert and consultant who spent over two decades helping to build Ramsey Solutions alongside Dave Ramsey.
Richard Ellis: Jack has spent his career solving the toughest leadership problem, people whether growing high performing teams, handling conflict, or guiding leaders through difficult decisions. He has seen it all. His ability to understand both sides of a conflict and help people find common ground is what makes him a sought after advisor for business leaders today.
Richard Ellis: Well, Jack, welcome to the show.
Jack Galloway: Thank you, Richard. It's an honor to be with you today.
Richard Ellis: I'm, I'm really excited to kind of just get your perspectives into, you know, this topic of tough people, tough conversations, you know, things that, you know, a lot of times we tend to [00:03:00] avoid. And so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll just kick it off by asking, uh, you know, I, I've heard you say that avoiding difficult conversations almost always makes the problem worse.
Richard Ellis: And, and, you know, at the high level that kind of makes sense. But tell me more about what you mean by that,
Jack Galloway: Richard. I've learned this. The hard way, the reason I know it to be so true is because I've done it so many times and, uh, I like people. I like people to be happy. I love for a team to have harmony.
Jack Galloway: And as a young leader, I just felt like if I just didn't create the conflict that everybody would be happy. They would get along, they would do their work, it would be on time, and that's how it would go. And that's not at all how it went. And so, uh, I used to get. Physically Ill anytime. I had to deal with a strong personality person, a difficult person, a problem that nobody else wanted to deal with, and it took me a [00:04:00] while to learn how to use my own personality style.
Jack Galloway: Along with some practice and some pro tips that we can talk about here today, that really helped me to up my game when it came to dealing with difficult situations, difficult people, and to have a lot more confidence and have better outcomes. I.
Richard Ellis: I, I like that a lot. And I can certainly resonate with, um, you know, this idea of just wanting to avoid conflict, right?
Richard Ellis: I'm, I'm a naturally a, an optimistic guy and, you know, those just aren't fun conversations to have. I'd rather talk about the fun stuff and the good stuff, uh, and recognize the goodness in, in, in others. And so I, I tend to, you know, see what you're saying, where if I'm not careful, I'll avoid. Some of those, uh, as you think about, you know, just other leaders and, uh, people that you've worked with, are there any kind of trends that, you know, be beyond just, Hey, I know this is gonna be, you know, either ugly or difficult or uncomfortable that, uh, that kind lead [00:05:00] to us avoiding these conversations in the first place that we need to just be careful about?
Jack Galloway: Well, I find that. First, I find that the majority of the population simply just does not deal well with conflict in any part of their life. Including in the workplace. There's fear. There's fear that it's gonna go horribly wrong. Uh, they don't know how to do it the right way. So there's fear that it's gonna go wrong, and there's a lack of just skill and experience on the right way to do it, to have a positive outcome.
Jack Galloway: And so what we often end up doing is just kind of putting it off. Until tomorrow telling ourselves it'll probably get better on its own. Telling ourselves they're not that bad of a person. They're not, you know, that horribly wrong in their approach. And we just make excuses to ourselves as leaders. I. All along, not knowing that our team is over here watching us as [00:06:00] leaders, and we're losing influence day by day with our own teams because we don't have the courage, the backbone, and the skill required to handle difficult situations with a positive outcome.
Richard Ellis: I think that's really smart. Uh, and, and just recognizing that especially if you're a second or third level leader, you've got other managers and leaders below you looking at you, right? And, uh, observing what you're doing. And so this is one of those cases where we really do need to lead by example. Yes.
Richard Ellis: Uh, I know I've heard in some of your training sessions that you've mentioned that, you know, the hardest part is the first conversation just getting started. So tell, what, what practical tips do you have about how do you bring it up? How do you get it off on the right foot? Right. Well.
Jack Galloway: Part of the reason that I have learned that this is, if you get this part right, this is like one of the cornerstones of the foundation of having a successful [00:07:00] experience with any conflict whatsoever, is to have it soon.
Jack Galloway: Because when you sit down with someone and something happened 10 days ago, our memories are not that great as exactly what happened. They're a little bit surprised that we're having a conversation about anything that happened 10 days ago. They feel a little bit taken off guard, a little bit insulted that, that you've waited this long, sort of like you've held this in your pocket for just the right moment to come and surprise me with.
Jack Galloway: And so we end up waiting and waiting and waiting, but if we'll have it soon. Certain things happen that sort of almost get us off to a good start. One is there's not a lot of time for fear to build up. There's not a lot of time for. Uh, anger or bitterness for me as the leader, there's not a lot of time for me to really start going, you know what?
Jack Galloway: I think [00:08:00] Richard meant to do that. I, Richard does that all. Like, there's just not as much time. And so when I tell leaders to have it soon, I mean as soon as is practically. Possible. So if I'm sitting in a meeting with someone and Heather over here is on her phone, the whole meeting, she's checked out of the meeting, she's not paying attention.
Jack Galloway: She came in late. She's and, and it's just drawing away from the productivity of our meeting. As much as I dread it, I have already told myself that as soon as the meeting's over, I'm gonna ask her to hang back for three minutes and us just have a. Quick conversation for me to ask what's going on. I'm not gonna accuse her of what's going on.
Jack Galloway: There may be a death in her family. There may be something where she needs to leave the meeting and, and is much more important than what we're doing. But if I won't wait too long, I [00:09:00] won't let all these stories build up in my head and I can just ask her what's going on and find out and I can address. If it was simply she just checked out, just not having a good day at work, I can just address kind of how that affects everybody else on the team and that.
Jack Galloway: I'd rather her do it a different way and I can explain what that is. It didn't come across super heavy. It didn't feel like I had to give that a lot of thought, and it's off my to-do list. It never even made it on my to-do list. I just handled it. And you know what? With a lot of people, a quick verbal connection like that will solve a lot of problems before they get worse.
Richard Ellis: Really good. So the big tip, as soon as you practically can after the event or the situation, have that conversation. And then you mentioned something subtle there that, that I wanted to dig into is, um. Not only does that not give you time to [00:10:00] fester and get bitter or make assumptions, but, but you also mentioned, hey, you're not gonna come in with a preconceived notion.
Richard Ellis: You're, you're gonna ask her, you know, what's going on and it could be a death in the family or something going on. Um, and so that, that level of just approach, tell me a little bit about, you know, how you start that conversation with that kind of approach.
Jack Galloway: The things that I always try to do when I'm having a, what I call a difficult conversation, is to be curious and curious to me means I'm not.
Jack Galloway: Predetermining, what's going on? I don't know what's going on. All I know is what I observed. It's going to affect my body language. It's going to affect the tone of my voice. It's gonna affect the words that I choose, and I can simply come in and ask questions. I can say, Richard, this is what I've noticed.
Jack Galloway: It feels like you're a little bit off lately. Like you're, you're late on some things. Your numbers aren't what they used to be. You don't seem [00:11:00] as, uh, excited to be at work as you normally are, and I just wanted to be as your leader, just stop and go, Hey, is everything okay? Is there something I can help with?
Jack Galloway: Is this just a season we're going through? But I could just open the floor for you to say, well, actually. There is something going on, and it could be professional, it could be personal, it could be, Hey Jack, I'm not getting along with my new leader that you just moved me to. He's not very prepared. We're not getting along.
Jack Galloway: I don't know what I'm doing, and it's really thrown me off my game. So it could be a lot of different things. And so I really don't feel like it's the right thing for me to do. By accusing or predetermining what this behavior means. It is my job to ask.
Richard Ellis: I like that a lot because I can picture just being on the receiving end, uh, that just says, Hey, you care about me.
Richard Ellis: Just that approach, you care what's going [00:12:00] on and what's going on may have led to, you know, some poor behavior decisions or, you know, different activity or being off my game. Um, so I like that a lot. So, you know, address it as quickly as possible. Come at it with curiosity and empathy. Um, and, and that kind of leads me to another thing that I've heard you talk about, which is just this balance of candidness with, uh, with being kind.
Richard Ellis: And, and just a, a, a quick story. I, I was, uh, consulting with a, a client a few years back and they were really proud of the fact that they, you know, part of their culture was radical candor, right? But. When I got to know them, it, it, it wasn't just being frank. Yeah. But that radical candor was coming across as really kind of, you know, not, I wouldn't say as far as toxic, but it was leaning in that direction.
Richard Ellis: It, it just, it wasn't as constructive of feedback as I think they were hoping or thinking. Right. Uh, so that kind of takes me back to your [00:13:00] candor and candidness, but being kind, um, tell me more.
Jack Galloway: Well. Kind of playing off what you were talking about. I find that a lot of people swing the pendulum to one side or the other.
Jack Galloway: They're either so kind that they never deliver any clarity about what's wrong and what needs to change, or they're so heavy handed and so frank and so abrupt that they throw the other person off to where they're really not able to communicate. In a professional and clear way, and, and they sort of have a fight or flight response.
Jack Galloway: And neither one of those extremes has ever worked for me. Mm-hmm. And so I worked, I spent my career 22 years working with Dave Ramsey, who is a good friend of mine and a fantastic leader. He coined the phrase with me to be unclear is to be unkind. To be clear. Is to be kind. And that just resonated with me, [00:14:00] especially with my Enneagram nine peacemaker style.
Jack Galloway: I sometimes was being so kind that I wasn't delivering any clarity. And so my strong personality person who might be a little unaware of the problem that they have, they might stroll into my office and I spend so much time telling them what a good job they're doing, and then I spend this much time telling them what needs to change, that they walk out feeling like they just gotta slap on the back, not on the wrist.
Jack Galloway: They're going, Hey, that guy loves me. And I, the leader, am thinking, oh, I've solved this problem, and the next day the problem just continues on. Got it. And so what I have learned is that it is most important to be clear when we say be candid, what we really mean is, just to be clear, it's not to take a long time to get to the point.
Jack Galloway: It's not to, uh, decide ahead of [00:15:00] time why the problem may exist. It is to say, Richard, here's a problem I'm observing. I'd love to talk with you about it. I'd love for us to find a solution to it. I'm giving you benefit of the doubt in the process. You're feeling that from me. You feel confidence to open up to me.
Jack Galloway: 'cause all we really wanna do is solve this problem together, whatever it is, and. Most of the time, we can solve the problem if we'll trust each other and just get to work and roll up our sleeves and solve the problem. But if I'm not clear, as a leader, you are never really given the tools necessary to adjust your behavior, your performance, your attitude, whatever it may be.
Jack Galloway: And so I have learned really to err on the side. It's not a 50 50 split of clarity and kindness. It's about a 70% weighted on the clarity side, and it's wrapped in a 30%. [00:16:00] Kindness blanket. I can be clear and kind at the same time.
Richard Ellis: I like that. But
Jack Galloway: if I'm kind without the clarity, I haven't done you any favors.
Jack Galloway: I haven't helped myself as a leader to solve this problem. And we're just gonna continue kind of chasing our tail until fi somebody finally just says whatever it is that needed to be said in the first place.
Richard Ellis: Right. Right. Uh, and you may have done some more damage along the way if it takes a roundabout way to get there, but, um.
Richard Ellis: Yeah, I love that. So clarity is kindness. Uh, and, and so even outside of performance reviews or constructive feedback that you may have to give or, or tough conversations, I, I, I could just picture, you know, just the stress from lack of clarity and work streams or, you know, jobs or projects, right? And so lack of clarity is not good in any case.
Richard Ellis: And, and I like that you've related it to this, that, and, and it's actually being kind in [00:17:00] the, uh. In the scheme of, you know, uh. Correcting, maybe, you know, poor behavior or uh, or poor performance.
Jack Galloway: And all too often we as leaders, we believe that we have been clear when no one else feels that way. We feel like we have cast a clear vision, we've cast a clear plan, a clear strategy, some clear goals.
Jack Galloway: We feel like everybody knows exactly what we know and what we're thinking. And then when I sit down with their teams. Very few of them. Have those things and they go, you know what? I don't know those things. I've heard bits and pieces, but I don't know where we're going or why we're going there. I don't know what winning looks like.
Jack Galloway: I don't know what my role is exactly. And so a lot of times when we get on the. Clarity train. We can ride that thing a long way to where we find a lot of other problems in the business [00:18:00] are from confusion and a lack of clarity. I feel like confusion is one of the most deadly things. In a business because not everybody, uh, understands that everybody's confused and so they just keep it to themselves.
Jack Galloway: They just kind of keep showing up. They kind of keep doing the same thing, and we just keep getting what we've been getting, which is not what we need in order to go when in our business.
Richard Ellis: That's great. Well, I want, I wanna dig into, uh, uh, that just a little bit more, and that is, um, what comes to mind is the, um.
Richard Ellis: The busyness and the burdens that managers are under and leaders. And so, I mean, I haven't worked with a sales leadership team that hasn't said we are overburdened with everything we have to go and have going on with the administrative part of the business. This, you know, uh, managing up and then I'm also supposed to, you know, coach my team and do all these things.
Richard Ellis: Right. [00:19:00] And so you could just picture that, you know. For these types of conversations, even if they try to have them quickly, they're just, you know, quick hits and, you know, is, is there anything that you've learned that can, you know, help leaders just slow down just a minute, be a little bit more prepared for these conversations to do them well?
Jack Galloway: I would rather see a business leader do fewer things and do them with success, do them well. Mm-hmm. Than to do many things and do none of them well. And unfortunately, in a day of busyness, we're all a little bit too afraid to raise our hand and say, I can't do that many things and do them well. Which ones do you really want me to get done?
Jack Galloway: Because it comes across as not being a team player, or it comes across as I'm lazy and I don't wanna work. When we really have confidence, that's when we really understand what our own capacity is. I can come to you and go, Richard, I love being here. I love [00:20:00] what we're doing. I've got about 170% of my capacity right now on my schedule for this week, and it's none of it's gonna get done well, I.
Jack Galloway: That's most important to you as my leader. Like if we can only get one thing done this week and done well, what is that? And I like to start to prioritize that way. If we get to the end of the week and there is some leftover time and energy, we can apply it to some of these lower priority things. But a sales team is where it shows up the most because I really like to see a sales team that is very.
Jack Galloway: Singular in its focus. You could take a great salesperson who's good on a phone or a Zoom or teams, and suddenly you put them in doing some administrative duties and their productivity goes from a nine to about a two, right? And all of a sudden, we're not ROI, that person or that position, and they're miserable as well.
Jack Galloway: So I really like to [00:21:00] keep. A sales team working in their strengths, doing fewer things, and see what things can I take off their plate that can be done by somebody who is actually good at them.
Richard Ellis: Hmm. I like that. So really the responsibility on the managers or leaders to push back to their leadership on saying, Hey, there's only so much I can get done, so let's, let's be clear on what that, that that priority list is.
Jack Galloway: It can come from either way, I can push it up to my leader, or if you're a great leader, you can pull it out of me. If you're a great leader, uh, it, my favorite way is for me to sit with a person who's a direct report to me. Ask 'em how things are going and almost when a hundred percent of the time, their first answer is gonna be fine.
Jack Galloway: Everything's great, and I've got to lead beyond that. I've got to know that's not the whole answer, and I've got to start poking and prodding and asking some specific things. How's that project? How's [00:22:00] this new team member? How's that process we talked about coming? How's that timeline we talked about? And that's when I'm really gonna get some specific.
Jack Galloway: Answers. And a lot of times that person had really got to build some trust with us in order to level with us. But the reason we wanna do that is not because we wanna accuse them of not working hard. It's because if we've allowed too many things to get on their plate at one time, we can just be sure that none of 'em are gonna get done very well, and we're gonna end up with a mediocre result across the board and nobody wins Super Bowls with a mediocre result.
Richard Ellis: I like that and I could start to see, you know, the puzzle pieces tying together. If we lead with clarity and we ensure and we test that with our teams, that we are being clear. 'cause as you mentioned earlier, sometimes we're not as clear as we think we're being right. But we make sure everybody's clear.
Richard Ellis: And then within that clarity of what we need to get done, we help them prioritize the most important [00:23:00] pieces. Yes. When it comes time to having some difficult conversations, we've built rapport, we've built trust, right? Uh, and they'll take it, um, you know, with the right, um, kind of the right perspective of we're just trying to execute what we've agreed upon as a priority and part of our clear mission versus a personal indictment of who they are or,
Jack Galloway: or, absolutely.
Jack Galloway: You got it. I love it.
Richard Ellis: Well, I, I wanna kind of, so this is great and, and you've just given me just lots of practical tips. You just, even as we work with other, uh, management teams and leaders, uh, to kind of put into practice. But, um, one of the things I know that, you know, is kind of a concern and, and you tend to think about, well, I'm gonna have a really tough conversation.
Richard Ellis: What, is that really gonna move the needle? Or are they gonna go back and just kind of be a, a. A, a bad apple across the team and go talk about, you know, their leader and how there are, or, uh, what, [00:24:00] what is the aftermath like, and, and is there anything specific that you have, uh, in terms of guidance for us to ensure that it doesn't turn into just venting, but it actually, you know, has the intended effect?
Jack Galloway: You know, I have learned, Richard, that if I have difficult conversations with 10 people. On a regular consistent basis with nine of them, if I will have it early, ask questions, be non-judgmental, be clear, point out what I'm seeing, have the courage to tell 'em what's working and what's not working. Even the toughest character out there wants to engage with a leader that does that because a lot of times they're frustrated.
Jack Galloway: They're acting out for some reason, and I'm giving them a open. Place to talk about that. And when you mention venting, I'm actually okay with venting if it leads us somewhere. Sometimes there are certain people that just need to get something off their chest. Mm-hmm. It may be something that [00:25:00] happened an hour ago, or sometimes it may be something that happened two leaders ago before I was even here.
Jack Galloway: And I may not be able to solve those problems, and I'm okay with that. But if I'll let 'em clear the air and just get it out. Now, a lot of times we have a neutral place to work from and we can start to follow the same steps with agreeing on what the problem is, agreeing on what the solution might look like, how do we get from here to there?
Jack Galloway: Is it possible? Are they in the right role? Do they need a different role? Do they need more help, more training, whatever that may be. If we're just looking to solve a problem together, and it's not you versus me, it's not fight or flight. Nine times outta 10 that has a positive outcome. Even if down the road somewhere, that person is not the person for that job.
Jack Galloway: And sometimes that's what I find out. Sometimes they don't, they're not, they don't have the competence to [00:26:00] do that job. The job changed years ago, right? And they, they didn't change with it. And all of a sudden they're living in a digital world and they've got analog mindsets and processes. Through what we're talking about today.
Jack Galloway: I can even introduce to them the idea that they're in the wrong role without it feeling like it's something they did wrong, right? Just in a role that's not gonna get better. Let's start early. Let's see if there's something else they might be able to do. Or sometimes it's even just time for a person to.
Jack Galloway: End the season with us and start a new season somewhere else. And believe it or not, Richard, my peers kid me because I get thank you notes in the mail for firing people when I've done it the right way. When I've done it this way, when I've done it going, Richard, you're miserable in your work. Why wouldn't we go find you something somewhere else that you love and [00:27:00] is fulfilling and make more money?
Jack Galloway: Six weeks later, I get a note going, thank you for pushing me out of the nest. I'm doing it, I'm happy. And I never would've done it on my own.
Richard Ellis: That's great. Uh, it's just wonderful to think about those positive outcomes, uh, like that because, you know, uh, in, in our consulting world, you know, a lot of times we'll define or redefine roles, uh, for companies and, and we truly do find that sometimes people are in the wrong roles.
Richard Ellis: Right? Um, uh, or the role has shift because the market dynamics or the business dynamics and suddenly, you know, I was more of a cons, uh. You know, a customer support person, not a seller, but now you're trying to make me into a hunter. I don't like that. Right? And to have these honest and frank and clear conversations, uh, can lead to maybe putting them into a different seat.
Richard Ellis: Uh, and I really like what you said, it, I don't necessarily fear venting, right? Sometimes that can be, uh, helpful and productive. So that's a great takeaway as [00:28:00] well. The last thing I wanted to ask you about is, uh, and you've seen and worked in lots of businesses, as have I, and you know, cultures are different, right?
Richard Ellis: We see some cultures you're like, they have a great culture, and others that are like, eh, not so much of a great culture. Uh, any tips or guidance that you have for leaders in terms of how do we create a culture where we're doing these? Things in the right way. Right? We're, we're bringing clarity. Uh, and clarity is kindness.
Richard Ellis: And it's not just a, a phrase of radical candor just to say, yeah, we always speak what's on our mind, but you know, it's done in kindness and in a fruitful way. Any takeaways or any, any tips that you have for us?
Jack Galloway: It takes a little bit of time. It takes a lot more effort than we want it to, but it is well worth it.
Jack Galloway: And so what I mean by that is, let's say I come in as a new CEO on a team that's got a toxic culture that I didn't create. I can start to do several different things. I can [00:29:00] start to talk about what our culture should be from the front of the room. When I'm having a staff meeting virtually or in person or from a stage, I can talk about where are we going from here.
Jack Galloway: People get excited when things start to move forward and they will begin to let go of the past. Then I can start to do the things we've talked about today in my one-on-one interactions. That's sort of where the magic is. We've got to know that the things we do in these small group meetings and these one-on-one meetings are gonna get talked about.
Jack Galloway: When they go back out and they're right, their friend group, they're gonna go, Hey, you're not gonna believe what Richard just did in our meeting. Like he blew me away with it and I'm actually excited about this. Mm. And they start to spread this positivity. Yeah. And so being consistent from the front of the room and in the small group settings, or the one-on-ones, putting your money where your mouth is, [00:30:00] being a person of high character, it takes all of these things.
Jack Galloway: And you have to be the leader who's up there setting the example. We've just gotta know, if we're not doing these things, we should not expect our teams to do these things. And so we've got to lead by example. Someone has been leading a. By example, and in that storyline it was the CEO that just got fired, right?
Jack Galloway: They created a toxic environment, and that doesn't mean every single person gets to stay. What it means is we start where we are. We know it's gonna take some time. We're patient with our people while we set some boundaries and cast a new vision. We create some excitement and we just be really, really clear with everyone we come in contact with, from the most senior leader on the team to the newest person that just started this week.
Jack Galloway: We give them the same level of honesty and excitement, [00:31:00] and our team will decide if they're still on the mission that we're on or not. And if they're not. It's okay with me. It it, I want them to be happy in what they're doing and I want us to find people who are really excited to be on our mission and maybe our mission has changed.
Jack Galloway: Maybe someone's been here a long time and and, and they're no longer on our. Mission of the future, and I want to give them a way to step off of the train with honor, and there's ways to do that. And so I have found that if we'll do these things consistently, we'll get results. We have to get results. As a leader, we can't do all of these things and lose.
Jack Galloway: If we're the new football coach and we come in and lose every game, it doesn't matter how clear we are in the locker room. The team's not getting excited and neither are the fans, right? We still have to [00:32:00] lead our organization. Towards success. But in the midst of doing that, we do all these things that we've talked about here today, and we start to develop a really strong team that cares about each other, that cares about the work that we're doing.
Jack Galloway: They care about it beyond the paycheck that they're getting. They start to give more effort than they've ever given before, and all of a sudden it starts to get really fun again.
Richard Ellis: That's great. So well said and a great way to wrap up our time today, which unfortunately we are out of time. Um, and if you've listened to our other episodes, as I'm sure you know, that I'm gonna ask this final question and that is, uh, is there anything outside of having tough conversations or co counseling leaders that has brought you a little goodness in your life these days?
Jack Galloway: You know, I will tell you that um, the thing that has brought me goodness in my life is I've been gone from my career with Ramsey Solutions for two years. I led [00:33:00] a lot of people, I did these things that we're talking about with a lot of people. I helped some people leave, and what I learned was being on this side of that is if we'll do the things we're talking about.
Jack Galloway: While we're in that level of influence in that role, it impacts those people beyond just their jobs. Mm. It impacts them in their family lives. It makes, it makes, uh, fathers better, their fathers. It makes mothers better mothers. It makes, uh, people better spouses and it helps 'em in different areas of their life.
Jack Galloway: And I've learned that. The role is going to end for everyone. Unless you die on the job, you're gonna leave that role as the leader or as the follower. And I wanna do these things in a way so that when I come into contact with that person again, two years after we worked together, two years after, we had a hard conversation, maybe two years after I asked them [00:34:00] to leave.
Jack Galloway: I can walk up and high five 'em, give them a hug and, and really be proud of the relationship we had on the job. And it can transition to still being friends after the job.
Richard Ellis: That's so great. Well, if that's not goodness, I don't know what is. And so what a great way to end our show. Really thank you again, Jack for, uh, for your time today.
Jack Galloway: Thank you for having me.
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