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[00:00:00] Richard Ellis: In a world where companies are producing more content than ever, executive audiences are giving them less attention than ever. In the 2025 state of Internal Communication report, senior executives estimated that they waste 43 days a year on ineffective presentations. At the same time, a recent CSG State of the Customer Experience Report found that nearly 70% of company messaging feels interchangeable.
[00:00:28] The problem is not a lack of information. The problem is the absence of story discipline. Journalists and screenwriters have long worked within constraints that business leaders rarely face. Rigid word counts, unforgiving formats, and audiences who will leave the moment they're bored. These disciplines force ideas to earn their place.
[00:00:49] Today we explore what happens when business leaders adopt the same narrative rigor. Welcome to some goodness, where we engage seasoned business leaders and experts to share [00:01:00] practical guidance to help today's go to market leaders, execute, lead, and win in a fast changing world. Today we're looking at storytelling.
[00:01:09] But not in the decorative sense. We're talking about the kind of narrative discipline that determines whether an idea spreads or disappears. My guest is Chris Warren, an award-winning journalist and consulting principal with decades of experience shaping stories that hold attention. Chris has served as editor in chief of the US edition of Photon Magazine, covering the solar industry.
[00:01:32] Before that, he was an editor at Los Angeles Magazine and is written for the Los Angeles Times Magazine, institutional investor, national Geographic Traveler, slam Sierra, and many others. He's also written screenplays, hosted podcasts, and built enterprise messaging for major global brands. Alright, well, Chris, welcome.
[00:01:52] Chris Warren: Thanks a lot, Richard. It's, uh, great to, great to be here and, uh, great to see
[00:01:56] Richard Ellis: you. Well, I, I love that we're talking about storytelling, so we're [00:02:00] gonna dive into that. But, uh, my first question, which may be a dumb question, but is storytelling still relevant in business today? What, what's your perspective on that?
[00:02:09] Chris Warren: Yeah, uh, I think it's probably more relevant than it ever has been. And you know, the way I think about it is we are all completely inundated and overwhelmed with content, but content isn't storytelling. Storytelling is something that's re memorable, something that you're gonna likely go and repeat to friends and colleagues.
[00:02:38] And content can be something completely different. And so I, I feel like the ability to tell a story in a disciplined, effective, entertaining, educational way. Still stands out and stand stands out even more than ever before because of the sheer volume of, [00:03:00] uh, content that is, you know, being, um, uh, you know, driven down our throats every day.
[00:03:08] And, uh, it's an opportunity is agreed.
[00:03:13] Richard Ellis: And, and I, I, I think, you know, a au authentic storytelling can kind of cut through this automation, AI, bot driven world that, uh, you know, that we're living in right now. Right? And so I think there's a real opportunity, and so looking for some insights from you on how to do that well.
[00:03:31] And so. You spent your entire career really turning complex information into something that people actually wanna read or listen to. And so I just thought, you know, one question out of the gates would be, is there any big, you know, single biggest mistake you see businesses making when they're trying to tell a story?
[00:03:52] Chris Warren: Yeah, there, there really are. And it's, it's understandable. I, I'll say, because if [00:04:00] you think about. You know, an executive, their, their world is their company. Mm-hmm. They're working to make it more efficient. They're working on culture, they're working on all the things that are internal to making a business work.
[00:04:19] And the mistake that I most frequently. Notice, and it's pretty obvious when you see it happening, is they assume that the, the world that they're focused on internally is relevant outside of their four walls. And so how does that translate? That translates into self-referential discussions and communication that is.
[00:04:53] Focused on, Hey, look at the great things that we do. Look at all of the, the value [00:05:00] we can deliver to you. And instead of embracing the audience, the reader, the viewer, the other person on the, the, you know, the zoom call or the phone, what matters to them. So, so the, the main mistake I see is that. People, and again, it's understandable, get enraptured with their own world and don't think about trying to approach things from the perspective of their listener or their audience.
[00:05:31] That's, I think, if you can reorient that mindset, you can start to change a lot pretty quickly.
[00:05:40] Richard Ellis: Right. Well, and I, I see that more pervasive in the tech world. I don't know, uh, what you think, but, you know, technology these days is really cool and interesting and exciting and, and you get into that company and everybody's, you know, enamored with their own technology.
[00:05:56] It's sexy and cool and does really cool stuff, and it's innovative and [00:06:00] disrupted. But you know, then, you know, as they talk about what it does, it's, it's all self-focused. It's not others focused. It's not what, what can this allow others to do, or how does this benefit or add value to others necessarily?
[00:06:13] Right,
[00:06:13] Chris Warren: right, right. Let, let, I'll add one other thing that just occurred to me. Deep knowledge about a topic is not a story, and I find that. Often is an impediment actually to good storytelling is, you know, people really understand their their subjects. Mm-hmm. And are eager to communicate layers of maybe technical expertise or market expertise that has no connection with, again.
[00:06:54] The person on the other end and what they're trying to accomplish. So I, I'll [00:07:00] hear, I I, in my work, I, I interview a lot of engineers and these are super smart people with deep, deep technical expertise and no idea or no no sense that when they're talking to others about those details. That it doesn't resonate and it doesn't connect to anything.
[00:07:25] They're, they're displaying their intelligence, but they're not connecting that intelligence to something that matters to their audience. Right. Got it. Got it. So, I, you know, don't get, don't get internally focused and don't focus too much. You know, your technical expertise can come into play later. When you know you've sold something or you're engaged with helping and partnering with someone, but not as a lead in.
[00:07:54] Um, so Right. You really, you know, I think it's about knowing when to deploy. Your [00:08:00] intelligence and your expertise. Sure,
[00:08:02] Richard Ellis: sure. And to your point, ultimately, you know, you've gotta be relevant to your listeners and your audience, right? And you have to connect the dots for them, not just assume that they can connect the dots.
[00:08:13] Right. Well, let, let's, let's pull on that thread a little bit in terms of like, you know, what makes a good story and storytelling structure. You know, I think we've all seen, you know, the different structures, the hero's journey, the rags to riches, you know, the three act structure. You know, there's a lot of 'em.
[00:08:29] Do we have to be, you know, um, overly concerned with a structure like that, or are there just some keys to goodness here in, in telling a good story?
[00:08:39] Chris Warren: Yeah, I, I mean, I, I would say that. You can have a filter about what you think is a good story based on your own personal experience. And again, I kind of would go back to, you know, what, what are the elements of the stories that you repeat to others that [00:09:00] you know, and, and sort of dissect that why, why did that resonate me with me?
[00:09:06] And there can be different pieces of that that you can pull on. It can be. Emotional. It can be educational, it can be surprising. I love surprising because I find that if someone tells me something that is just, wow, that, that kind of shakes me, uh, in a good way. Mm-hmm. Like, oh, I had just had not thought about that.
[00:09:31] What are the elements of that kind of story that apply in a business context and, you know, uh. There, there are all sorts of businesses that their job is to disrupt. You know, their job is to think differently and offer something unique. Craft a story that highlights how what you're doing. [00:10:00] You know, again, not leading with yourself, thinking about your, you know, your audience, but how your different approach is.
[00:10:09] Unique and ultimately how it helps them. So the structure of a, a good story does matter. I mean, I think, you know, you have to have a shared reality that's sort of like the setup. Then you have the, you know, there's some tension. Good stories have tension. Who's the murderer? You know, right. How, you know, the true crime.
[00:10:33] That's a, that's a formula, but it's a good formula. And then there's a resolution. So. You're not, you don't have to be wedded to that, but try to think of, alright, I'm establishing a connection with my audience. There's tension. Everybody has tension in their business. And then what's the resolution? If you can think about that, just sort of as a, as a paradigm.
[00:10:57] I think it can make your, your [00:11:00] stories and your communication better. It's not just coming in and saying, here's my 10 facts that, you know, my tsunami of of genius is gonna overwhelm you and, you know, surrender. That's not, that's not helpful.
[00:11:18] Richard Ellis: Love it. Yeah, that's great. That's great. So, um. I, I like that. And I like that you brought intention, um, you know, and surprise, you know, a lot, a lot of times.
[00:11:28] Uh, we'll, we'll talk, talk about provoking, um, you know, your current state or your thought process. Uh, being provocative, being, you know, contrarian a lot of times, you know, brings in some, you know, interesting elements that, uh, that can captivate the, the audience. Right.
[00:11:46] Chris Warren: Uh, uh, I'll add one other, one other thing, which, sorry.
[00:11:49] Um, yeah. Just as these things occur to me, I'm, I'm, I wanna, I wanna get them out stakes. I'm watching, um, I'm watching Stranger Things with my son [00:12:00] right now. He's, he is like. He said to dad, you gotta see this. It's incredible. And the stakes in that are continuous, you know, it's like life or death. It's family relationships, it's school, it's career.
[00:12:15] I mean, it's like, it, it's all in a kind of a crazy world, which is even better. But what are the stakes? There are stakes in in, in every company, in every industry. I do a lot of work in the utility industry. The stakes are. If they don't do their work right, the power goes off and people can die. I mean, those are real world stakes.
[00:12:38] So you have to identify, well, well, what's the stakes for my customer? Or what's the stakes for, you know, this industry? And connect to that because it's real. And it'll be very real to the people you're talking to.
[00:12:52] Richard Ellis: Right. Well, and, and you know, I think we're all, you know, trained from many years ago of, you know, start with or think about [00:13:00] the why.
[00:13:00] Right. And really orienting around the stakes, uh, amplifies the why, right? Because bad stuff can happen, or, you know, there's a lot on the line. So I, I think that's a really great way to think about, you know, a, a key element of your story is are, you know, what are the, what's at stake? Right,
[00:13:19] Chris Warren: right, right. Yeah.
[00:13:20] Richard Ellis: You've got such an interesting and varied career, uh, and, and, uh, just body of experience behind you. You, you've been involved in, you know, you've been a journalist, you've been involved in screenwriting and all that stuff, and, and those two just kind of stuck out to me as you think about storytelling. You know, there.
[00:13:40] They're in and around the same thing. Uh, are there any insights that you bring into businesses, uh, from your journalistic Yeah. Experience or time or screenwriting structures or anything like that that we could learn from?
[00:13:54] Chris Warren: Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean it really, storytelling does have some u universal [00:14:00] truths, I would say, and you have to kind of think about the venue you're operating in.
[00:14:05] So in journalism, you know. I was not so much, I didn't really do, uh, you know, traditional newspaper. The who, what, where, why. I was more in a magazine world, and one of the things I always tried to remember is that the reader was kind of the master. That's, that's who I was serving, and I feel like that concept is really important.
[00:14:33] In business storytelling, you are not sort of the, the star of the show, the, the person, your au your audience is your protagonist. And so keeping that always in mind and the service that you're trying to provide to them is super valuable. And so, for example, like I used to do a lot of work with airline magazines when that was a thing.
[00:14:56] Um, and so. You know, the purpose of those [00:15:00] stories. So I, I did, uh, you know, I did some stories like I went to Tokyo and wrote about jazz clubs or went to Amsterdam and wrote about Indonesian food. The purpose of that is to take people on that journey. I mean, maybe, hopefully they're eventually gonna wanna do the same thing.
[00:15:18] That's what the airlines want, but. Keeping in mind the reader and what they're trying to achieve by engaging with this content was always sort of front of mind. And I feel like the same kind of lessons are, you know, they apply in a business context. So always remember that you're not the star. It's your audience and you're serving them, and how can you serve them?
[00:15:48] Through education, through, um, you know, insight through ultimately some sort of product or service and that, that's, that should be sort of the [00:16:00] barometer through which, how, through which you think about the stories that you're telling. And I, I think that, you know, similar in screenplays, you know, there's, there's, it's, you're serving the audience and you're taking them on a journey and you're delivering insights.
[00:16:17] It's the exact same sort of concept, uh, and businesses can apply the same thing in all of their stories as well.
[00:16:25] Richard Ellis: Right, right. Well, and then extending that to use of stories by sales teams, for example, you know, you might have a collection of customer success stories or stories around various use cases that your product or services enable, and so you wanna align that protagonist in that particular story with your audience so that you've got high.
[00:16:49] Relevancy and credibility and the stakes align and there's interest, right? Yeah. And a lot of times I'll see. Teams or, or reps, just [00:17:00] they have their two or three favorite stories They tell all the time. Yeah. Right. And I'm shadowing their calls and I'm like, man, why do you keep telling that same story? I know you loved it, but it's not relevant.
[00:17:10] Chris Warren: Right, right, right. Yeah, no, it, it's also about, I, I feel, you know, just, just remember your humanity like and their humanity. It, there is a transactional nature of business, but that doesn't have to be, it's still ultimately about relationships and how do you build good relationships? You build connection through stories and shared, um, shared experiences, shared insights.
[00:17:44] It, it, it, it's a, you know, it's a two-way street, so. Be open when you're telling a story, to also be the listener, to be the audience. And I mean, I find, frankly, in our world, I'm amazed at how [00:18:00] few people ask questions and you'll immediately stand out because you've taken an interest in someone else and you've taken an interest in, you know, what their experience is and what they desire and what they, you know, what they're trying to achieve in their career or in their life.
[00:18:17] Um, I mean, I, my kids, the thing that I most want them to do is be interested and curious and you stand out and like that means asking questions and listening and sure, you know, if you can cultivate those skills, you're a better person and you're also gonna be better hopefully at, at your job.
[00:18:41] Richard Ellis: Well, and as you say that I, I, I can think of a, a couple of leaders I've worked with in the past that just kind of had that gift.
[00:18:48] And even when they told stories, it wasn't a monologue, right? Yeah. It was a dialogue and they would ask questions and bring you into this story and have you ever come across this and well, well, that [00:19:00] relates to the right. And so they kind of tease out the story rather than, let me just tell you a story.
[00:19:04] And, and they're, yeah. They're on a, a five minute, you know, monologue.
[00:19:08] Chris Warren: Right, right. It takes humility too. I mean, you know, to, to, to be, you know, there's a lot of executives are very confident and that's great and you need that level of confidence, but you also need to remember that you're better with others and you're especially better with the others on your team.
[00:19:30] So internally, as a leader, I think, you know, one of your jobs is listening. And really, you know, listening with encouragement to, you know, for people to deliver stories that you could probably reuse frankly. And you're gonna be better. They're gonna be better, they're gonna be, feel more involved. And, uh, I, I feel like culture that encourages that is really important is storytelling culture, [00:20:00] really.
[00:20:00] Richard Ellis: Yeah. For sure, for sure. And I, I, I, I think that very much is, and, and, and should be kind of a, a culture, you know, element that you intentionally think about. 'cause it's, it's not gonna just happen accidentally, right? No, you, you need, yeah. And a lot of it. It takes practice and discipline and, and all of that good stuff.
[00:20:21] Yeah. Well, one of the things I did want to push in a little bit more is the, the, the human side of things, right? And so, you know, authenticity, uh, and emotion and, you know, you mentioned curiosity, but when you think about, you know, those aspects of. You know, just in business, I think a lot of times things can come across a little bit too sterile.
[00:20:43] Uh, yeah. And, you know, certainly with, you know, AI and, you know, digital transformations, you know, so much is automated these days. And so I think there's, there's a hunger now for authenticity. What, what is your perspective in kind of [00:21:00] just the storytelling and relating to others, um, and, and kind of bringing that human, you know, aspect to it?
[00:21:07] Chris Warren: I think you always have to remember basically it, the foundation of everything is to thi to remember the, your humanity and you know, when you're telling, when you're telling stories in a business context, I feel like there's a real temptation to be antiseptic and the need, I think there is a need to lead with more of a human.
[00:21:34] Component. So it's gonna depend on the, on the business, obviously, I mean what, you know, what the industry is and what they're trying to accomplish. But there's ultimately always a human connection. So, you know, again, I do do this work in the power industry and utilities. So much of what that work is about, you know, who the end customer is and the [00:22:00] value from affordability.
[00:22:02] And, and which matters, you know, for, for people to, uh, live better lives, to build businesses and their aspirations in a business that's a human component. And if you just go and have a conversation about the efficiency of a turbine, um, you know, that's gonna, that, that has a place, but it's connected to something bigger and it's connected to something bigger that's human.
[00:22:31] And so. Finding ways to, you know, no, nobody's, nobody's in immune to a human story. Uh, hopefully. Right. Well, you know, maybe I shouldn't make that bold statement, but I, I feel like having that kind connection where it's relevant, not where it's, you know, like kind of, oh yeah. It's a bullet point on my discussion list with this person.
[00:22:58] Where it's organic and, you know, [00:23:00] feel free to share stories of meaning to you, you know, related to the business. Be, you know, don't be shy about bringing in some sort of human outcome. And, um, people will remember the story rather than, you know, a litany of features. They could look at a spec sheet and find that no one.
[00:23:22] So, you know, you will remember the human outcome stories much better than you do the the features function story.
[00:23:30] Richard Ellis: Right, right. Yeah. So good. Well, unfortunately we're about out of our time. Um. Really appreciate, you know, some fresh insights around storytelling From your point of view, is there anything we haven't mentioned that, uh, you'd throw out there in terms of practical advice or things to keep in mind or something not to do?
[00:23:49] Chris Warren: Yeah, well, I, I would just reemphasize the, you, you, you will immediately get greater value in your conversations [00:24:00] when you divorce yourself from the idea that you need to be a walking brochure. For your company that right away remember, you know, center yourself on your humanity and the humanity of your audience and avoid talking about yourself, your company, and your, you know, what you do.
[00:24:25] Um, once you do that, it open up, opens up whole new pathways to connect, and connection is ultimately about, is good storytelling. That's, that's how we define ourselves. That's how you know we get enrichment and life and, and purpose. It's all through stories. And just remember that, don't, you know, be human, be yourself, that it gives you a lot of freedom actually.
[00:24:51] Richard Ellis: That's true. Yeah. Really good, really smart. Well, um, you've listened to us before, so, you know, we love to share some goodness in, in all kinds of [00:25:00] ways. And so let's close out something that has nothing to do with storytelling, uh, that's brought you a little goodness lately, professionally or personally that you'd like to share.
[00:25:10] Chris Warren: Well, so, uh, I, my daughter last. New Year's made a, um, a, uh, a resolution that she wanted to run a half marathon, and she was like, dad, will you do it with me? Oh. And it was like, oh, okay. Sure. I haven't run in a while, but okay. We started training and we did it. We did a, a half marathon and. That really the accomplishment was, was great, but it was all of the work and time together alone, running and suffering sometimes That brought me amazing joy, like just, you can't find better [00:26:00] goodness than you know, time with your no kidding daughter.
[00:26:03] So that was, wow. That's my great goodness.
[00:26:07] Richard Ellis: I love it, man, that, that, uh, great story. And I'm sure I, I can picture, you know, all the good times that y'all had e even suffering together and, you know, all the other parents out there. If it's, uh, if you're finding it hard to get your kids away from the, uh, the screen time and the devices, you know Yeah.
[00:26:24] You'll train for a half marathon together. That's right. That's one way. And
[00:26:27] Chris Warren: well, at, at this year, she said, we're gonna do a marathon, so, all right. Whoa. Here we go.
[00:26:34] Richard Ellis: At that point, that's when I would remind my daughter, Hey, this is your resolution, not mine.
[00:26:40] Chris Warren: Yeah. Yeah. She's not having that. So, I don't know. 15 year olds are pretty, uh, pretty stubborn.
[00:26:46] Richard Ellis: That's awesome. Well, that, that's a great way to end the show. Uh, thank you again for being here. Of course. And, uh, of course. And we'll talk again soon.
[00:26:54] Chris Warren: Yeah. Real pleasure. Thanks.
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