SG EP42
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[00:00:00] Richard Ellis: In the last decade, B2B marketing adopted more technology than any previous era yet. Pipeline efficiency declined. MQL conversion rates stagnated. Buying groups expanded and marketing teams quietly reverted to volume tactics they once claimed to outgrow. A BM was supposed to fix this instead. Many organizations now ask whether a BM still matters at all.
[00:00:25] Richard Ellis: The uncomfortable answer may be simpler than expected. A BM didn't fail. Marketing discipline did. Welcome to some goodness where we engage seasoned operators and thinkers to help leaders navigate real world, go to market complexity without hiding behind trends or tools. My guest today is Jessica Fless.
[00:00:45] Richard Ellis: She's a partner at Inverter and one of the original architects of modern account-based marketing. Jessica quite literally wrote the book on a BM and has spent the last decade watching how it was implemented, misused, rebranded, and in many [00:01:00] cases quietly abandoned. Today, we're not asking whether a BM is relevant.
[00:01:04] Richard Ellis: We are asking what a BM revealed about marketing itself. Jessica, welcome.
[00:01:11] Jessica Fewless: Thank you for having me on, Richard.
[00:01:13] Richard Ellis: So looking forward to diving into a BM. Uh, why don't we just kind of start at the very beginning and, you know, I guess it was, you know, many years ago it was, it was quite the buzz word or buzz phrase, account-based marketing, but, um, when it first took hold, what, what do you remember it as?
[00:01:33] Richard Ellis: Kind of the primary problem B2B marketing was trying to, to solve with it.
[00:01:38] Jessica Fewless: Yeah. Um, so I came. Onto the A BM scene in 2013. Um, and at that point, um, one-to-one a BM. Right. And we'll, we'll, we'll kind of be bouncing back and forth, but I think we'll primarily be doing, talking about one to many today, but one-to-one a BM had been kind of in B2B marketing for, I don't know, [00:02:00] four or five years at that point.
[00:02:01] Jessica Fewless: Um, right. And it was very much a right. You know, strict discipline of, you know, one marketer, one account, building a bespoke marketing plan and those sorts of things, right? When I came onto the scene in 2013, it was like, well, that's cool, right? You can personalize and you can get a little bit more specific.
[00:02:20] Jessica Fewless: Um, but, but can we do it at scale? Was kind of the question. And you know, at the time in full transparency, I was working for Demandbase, which was a technology that was purporting that yes, you can do this at scale. Right. And so, um, and really the reason for that, and I think this is kind of the net of your question, was, you know, why, why did we wanna do it at scale?
[00:02:42] Jessica Fewless: Mm-hmm. We wanted to do it at scale because. Marketers were feeling like they were on this hamster wheel. They were just doing more and more and sending out more emails and producing more content and bringing in more M qls. And sales was disqualifying more and more of those m qls 'cause they were highly unqualified.
[00:02:58] Jessica Fewless: Right. And so it was like, okay, we gotta do [00:03:00] something different here because our budgets can't just keep growing, you know? And as marketers, it was becoming an unfulfilling job, quite honestly. And CMOs and CROs were at each other's. Throats over, you know, the blame game and all that type of stuff. So something needed to change and so one to many A BM was that thing that could force that change.
[00:03:22] Richard Ellis: Right. And I remember there being a, a bit of a trend moving away from just kind of, uh, market positioning and air cover to more intentional lead generation, demand generation. Right. And as you mentioned, there's that, uh, that we're finding success in that one-to-one approach and personalization, but running into scale issues.
[00:03:46] Richard Ellis: But as, as. As it started to mature, you know, what was kind of the original promise of of a BM versus just, hey, more personalization at scale. Uh, anything that, that is relevant for our, our discussion today? [00:04:00]
[00:04:00] Jessica Fewless: Yeah, it was focus, efficiency. Greater ROI on your budget, those sorts of things, right? Because you were focused on the same set of accounts that your sales team cared about, right?
[00:04:12] Jessica Fewless: And you were only bringing in leads with those accounts. You know, as it evolved, we started talking about things like your ICP, right? Which was really figuring out, you know, out of your total addressable market, who's actually relevant to you, who do you actually want to sell to, right? Who's gonna be successful with your product or your service versus.
[00:04:33] Jessica Fewless: Just the known universe of who could all buy, right? So that was kind of an evolution over the course of kind of the last, I don't know, 10 years of a BM really getting to that. And that's really, really that efficiency and that alignment between sales and marketing come in, which really can make that whole pipeline and revenue generation and efficient machine.
[00:04:55] Richard Ellis: And you know, I was more on the sales side back then, you know, kind of in the [00:05:00] two thousands and the 2010s. And I think where this started to really culminate and, and I remember there, you know, always being a little bit of a disconnect between sales and marketing, right? And the handoff and MQs to sas and are they really qualified?
[00:05:14] Richard Ellis: Are they good or not? You know, and kind of a lot of finger pointing and um. But I do remember there being excitement around, Hey, this is, this is gonna be more than just general advertisement. This is gonna be creating opportunity, not just uncovering opportunity for the team and for, you know, um, the pipeline in general.
[00:05:36] Richard Ellis: Um. What, what, thinking back then, um, and I'm just kind of projecting our conversation today in terms of some learning opportunities. Were there some things that worked well and some things that didn't work well that would be worth kind of highlighting?
[00:05:53] Jessica Fewless: Yeah, so I think, you know. From a perspective of what didn't work well.
[00:05:58] Jessica Fewless: So there were just [00:06:00] straight up some salespeople who didn't want it. They were like, marketing, stay out of my accounts. Okay. Right. They're like, I, I, I know what I wanna talk to my clients, my, my, you know, customers and my prospects about, I don't want you mucking it up. Right. So there was definitely some of that.
[00:06:17] Jessica Fewless: So there were sales reps that were okay with the air cover. They didn't want, you know, so there, there was definitely a transition there
[00:06:25] Richard Ellis: of, so you're sending messages to my sponsors, my stakeholders, and hey, get outta my way. I've got a plan for that.
[00:06:33] Jessica Fewless: Yeah, and I mean, let's be clear, some marketers made some missteps early on.
[00:06:38] Jessica Fewless: I mean, I did, I remember now this was, you know, I was in my early twenties, but I remember I worked for a company that had cloud-based. Video conferencing? Um, well they had an on-prem version and then they came out cloud-based. Right? That was the early two thousands. Right. And I was really excited 'cause I was a part of the, [00:07:00] the cloud launch and what did I do?
[00:07:02] Jessica Fewless: I sent the announcement and the product launch to everybody. So those accounts that my sales reps were talking to about on-prem, I derailed. Oh, how many of those deals, right? And so that is just one example. I like to put it out there. 'cause mea ola, I did it. I I never did that again.
[00:07:24] Richard Ellis: Right?
[00:07:24] Jessica Fewless: And it happens.
[00:07:25] Jessica Fewless: And so that's why sales had a healthy skepticism when this all came. The other thing that happened was the number of M qls, this was before we started to talk about MQs. The number of M QLS went down, right? Mm. Because you're taking out the garbage. We were only handing them. MQs and leads from accounts that they said they cared about.
[00:07:47] Jessica Fewless: Right. And so there was this, but wait, the, the volume went down. It was like, great, but you're conversing actually,
[00:07:54] Richard Ellis: right?
[00:07:56] Jessica Fewless: Yep. So I think there was definitely that [00:08:00] alignment and expectation setting and those sorts of things that I think, um, we didn't do a great job of on the front.
[00:08:09] Richard Ellis: I can see that. I mean, even today in the clients we work with, there's, there's still a continuing challenge of being, you know, hyperfocused and aligned and relevant to your customers or your buyer's priorities or initiatives or strategic imperatives.
[00:08:25] Richard Ellis: Right. And to your point, you know, if they were moving to cloud and you're still pushing an on-prem message, or vice versa, right? That kind of gets in the way and mucks the whole thing up, right?
[00:08:34] Jessica Fewless: Yep.
[00:08:36] Richard Ellis: Well let, let's kind of take it to that next level of, there's one level of relevancy and that's at the account level, the company level.
[00:08:43] Richard Ellis: Mm-hmm. But then there's kind of the buying committees that, you know, you have to engage within that. And no longer is it one stakeholder that you gotta win over. Right. It's, it's a, it's a team. It's a lot of stakeholders. What, how do, how do you kind of think about where, you know. [00:09:00] Things have moved and how the buying committee fits into a BM and, and, and where we're going now.
[00:09:06] Jessica Fewless: Well, I think it's definitely, once again, a lot of this stuff is a marketing needs to catch up a little bit with how sales thinks about things. Let's be clear. Sales always knew there was a buying committee. Sales always knew who their economic buyer was, their executive sponsor was Right. And marketing didn't fully operationalize that.
[00:09:26] Jessica Fewless: Right? And so when we were doing M qls, we're like, yeah, it's, it's one of those personas you say you wanna talk to. And here's an MQL from that persona. Right? So we over, over, over-indexed on the individual and then a BM came along and we over-indexed on the account and. You know, the sales reps were like, cool, so that an account is showing intent.
[00:09:45] Jessica Fewless: Who, who am I supposed to talk to? Right. And so now buying groups is that evolution to bring the two together of all the individuals you wanna be talking to and um, at the right accounts, right? That's our opportunity here. But once [00:10:00] again, going back to the mistakes we made, right? What's gonna happen? Now we wanna start talking about M QAs, even though sales reps complain about M qls, 'cause they're not qualified, they're not ready to buy, blah, blah, blah.
[00:10:11] Jessica Fewless: But if those go away and you just start sending them MQs. They're like, well, what am I supposed to do with this? So you sent me intent data. Great. I don't, I don't know what that means. Right, right. There needs to be, once again, evolving further. It should never be a handoff between marketing and sales. It's gotta be that partnership to make that transition.
[00:10:32] Jessica Fewless: The other thing is. A lot of marketers say, well, buying groups, yeah, I get it. I know I need, I need these five people and I need to have them in my database and market to that. It's not that simple. There's a lot that needs to happen with those buying groups. It's, you know, top of funnel. Sure, you need to be speaking each of their individual languages to grab their attention, but as they move through the funnel, you need to develop consensus messaging that gets everybody on that stakeholder committee.[00:11:00]
[00:11:00] Jessica Fewless: Speaking the same language, thinking the same way, so that when that group, whomever the dedicated person is, reaches out to your sales team, they're already aligned around your message, how you talk about things, right? That makes you a leading contender to actually be purchased by that buying group.
[00:11:20] Richard Ellis: Sure.
[00:11:21] Richard Ellis: Sure. Well, and I like that you highlighted that it's a partnership between sales and marketing, because even though sales is used to, Hey, I'm engaging a buying committee, they do still tend to have their comfort zone, right? Mm-hmm. Got their message for the, they selling software or technology, they got their C-T-O-C-I-O, maybe ciso, you know, messaging.
[00:11:43] Richard Ellis: They got some CFO messaging on the, you know, opex versus ca CapEx, but. You know, marketing can come along and say, Hey, we've got relevancy and we've got value to the CHRO because we're impacting, you know, the people and, and the workers in [00:12:00] the business. And so don't miss out on this other stakeholder.
[00:12:03] Richard Ellis: Right. And so I just see a lot of times there's a give and take there where if we do kind of treat the whole situation as a partnership, we can learn from each other and, and better align and better target our messaging.
[00:12:16] Jessica Fewless: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:12:18] Richard Ellis: Well, as you think about kind of where we're going today. And where, you know, we've got ai, we've got everybody's just that much more educated before we, they even, you know, take a call with a sales rep, et cetera.
[00:12:32] Richard Ellis: I think it's noisy out there. They're getting inundate inundated with messaging and communications. Give us some tips on, you know, is a BM still relevant? What would, what should we be thinking about for the next two to five years?
[00:12:47] Jessica Fewless: Yeah, well this is where I'm gonna. Delineate again, between one to one a, b, m, and one to many A BM.
[00:12:54] Jessica Fewless: Okay? Because one to one a BM, that still should be a discreet discipline [00:13:00] within your marketing org. And honestly, some teams actually put it within their sales org. So I think that still should be its own specific discipline. Now, the one to many side of a BM. I'd argue that that should just be your demand gen motion.
[00:13:14] Jessica Fewless: Right. It a BM served its purpose one to many, A BM served its purpose to break all those bad habits we talked about earlier, the batch and blast, the, you know, reliance on M QLS and volume and all that type of stuff. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. And it got us to focus on the right accounts, the right people inside of those accounts, you know, customized and personalized messages, you know, focusing on signals.
[00:13:38] Jessica Fewless: To help guide that messaging, all of that type of stuff. A BM taught marketers how to do that. And now with the technology, with all the data we have, and now with the introduction of ai, you can truly do this at scale. So it really should be your demand gen motion, not this separate. A BM skunkworks team over here.
[00:13:59] Richard Ellis: Right. [00:14:00] Kind of in a silo or a one-off? Uh, yeah. Of as like a campaign. Okay. We've got our A BM campaign over here and, and it's disconnected. Right. It needs to be all part of the, the overall strategy.
[00:14:10] Jessica Fewless: Yeah. Because we, we have the wherewithal to make it our full go to market strategy, and so we should, at this point.
[00:14:18] Richard Ellis: That's good. That's good. Well, and it, it reminds me the other day we were having a conversation and you were, you were talking about we just need to continue to do, just, just do good marketing. Right? And so what are some of those good principles that we need to make sure you, and here we are at the end of the year thinking about 2026, right?
[00:14:38] Richard Ellis: And so people are gonna be planning their strategies, uh, and their initiatives. So what are some of those? Hey, make sure you do this and consider these.
[00:14:46] Jessica Fewless: Yeah, well. You know, earlier you had mentioned there's a lot of noise out there, right? Mm-hmm. Because of ai, because of technology, because of everything.
[00:14:56] Jessica Fewless: Right? So as marketers, I think the first [00:15:00] thing a marketing team needs to do is a, you need to understand who your desired buyer is. It's that getting to that ICP getting to, you know, that target account list segments of that, right. All of that. Mm-hmm.
[00:15:14] Richard Ellis: The next thing
[00:15:14] Jessica Fewless: then is of that ICP. Right? So forget your tam of that ICP and the segments therein.
[00:15:21] Jessica Fewless: Who, what? Do hard research on those accounts. Right? Not each individual account, but you can bucket them. You can say, okay, SMB has these challenges and enterprise has these, and Fortune 500 has these. Right. But do that research once again, we don't have to do, you know, I've, I've been in marketing long enough to remember the old school focus group.
[00:15:43] Jessica Fewless: Right?
[00:15:43] Richard Ellis: Right.
[00:15:45] Jessica Fewless: Which most B2B marketing teams don't have the budget or the bandwidth to do. Right. But now you've got deep research on your AI tools. Mm-hmm. That can help you really figure out what they care about, which is then gonna lead to your messaging. [00:16:00] Because as you said, buying groups do so much more.
[00:16:03] Jessica Fewless: I mean, depending on which study you go with, 70 to 90% of the buying journey happens digitally before they ever talk to sales.
[00:16:12] Richard Ellis: Right.
[00:16:13] Jessica Fewless: Right. And who owns that journey? It's not the sales team, it's the market. Right.
[00:16:17] Richard Ellis: That's before they get involved. Yes.
[00:16:18] Jessica Fewless: Right. And so, but to your point, there's a lot more messages out there.
[00:16:23] Jessica Fewless: There's a lot more noise. And so you need to be hyper relevant. And so that comes with doing that research and then combining it with the signals that you have. So that you know, you know of your entire ICP of your target account list, who's in what stage of the buying journey. So you're providing them with that relevant messaging that is gonna help keep moving them through that buying journey, um, without forcing them.
[00:16:47] Jessica Fewless: 'cause they're gonna move on their own time. But making sure that you're relevant and top of mind. Um, and you know, whether that's personalization or it's just. Custom nurtures and messages and those sorts of [00:17:00] things to that entire buying group. Right. Right. That's really what is gonna be the important thing come 2026 to make sure you stand out
[00:17:09] Richard Ellis: really good.
[00:17:10] Richard Ellis: And, and you, you mentioned. ICP and, and being, you know, being focused and you, you can prioritize, et cetera. But it brings to mind, I was just helping a client a few weeks ago with their board presentation and, and they were sharing with me some of the concerns of the board. And the board was, seemed to be a little bit over, uh, over-concerned with the tam mm-hmm.
[00:17:31] Richard Ellis: And sizing the Pam and, and Yep. And to me it's just like, well, you could make up numbers all day long and you could do all kinds of research. Right. Cool. You know, you're, you're not gonna be a addressing a hundred percent of the dam or even, you know, a large percent when you kind of get it down to it. So it's really the ICP and the industry focus.
[00:17:52] Richard Ellis: But, but that's just my, you know, what, what I've experienced. I'm, I'm curious kind of what, what have you learned around maybe some pitfalls [00:18:00] around Tam thinking and, you know, kind of getting it down to focusing the marketing team, right?
[00:18:05] Jessica Fewless: Yeah. This is where. And unfortunately, marketing can't just build an ICP.
[00:18:11] Jessica Fewless: Mm-hmm. Right? It needs to be a company wide exercise. And you're honestly doing your board a disservice by continuing to play into that TAM narrative, right? Because you are never gonna grow and scale if you keep focusing on your tam. You've gotta focus, because once you understand your ICP, that's gonna impact what kind of products you build, right?
[00:18:32] Jessica Fewless: So that's gonna impact your product development. You know, function, it's gonna impact your customer success team. 'cause if you've got, you know, you're bringing in all these accounts that aren't gonna be successful, but your customer success team still needs to support them, that's just gonna be a drain on their resources.
[00:18:49] Jessica Fewless: And then the accounts that can be successful aren't gonna be getting enough of their time and attention. Right. And then once again, now you go to marketing and sales. You know, [00:19:00] marketing has only got so much budget and so many head headcount, and that seems to be shrinking. Right.
[00:19:04] Richard Ellis: As a, as
[00:19:05] Jessica Fewless: a percentage of budget, which don't even get me started, that could be a whole nother uh,
[00:19:11] Richard Ellis: rant.
[00:19:11] Richard Ellis: Yeah. Maybe that's alright in our next episode.
[00:19:13] Jessica Fewless: Yeah, exactly. But, um, you know, so you can't focus, you can't focus on a tam. You need to be hyper-focused on those accounts that are gonna help build a sustainable revenue engine for your company. Plain and simple. Yeah. So that's.
[00:19:29] Richard Ellis: Agreed. And I think getting to, you know, answering why are we focusing on that subset, you know, and then how are we going to focus, right?
[00:19:38] Richard Ellis: How are we gonna be relevant from a marketing and dimension standpoint? And then how are we gonna take in very relevant conversational talk tracks from the sales team to carry that message through from marketing the sales to not only, you know, uncover. Qualified opportunities, but create them. Right.
[00:19:55] Richard Ellis: Yeah. And that leads me to, you know, I, I'm curious if you've seen [00:20:00] just, um, you know, a, a, any best practices around kind of the messaging that goes along with. You know, a BM or you know, this targeting of your ICP. One of the things that we try to try to encourage is it can't be all about why us, but you need to, you know, balance that with why do something different in the first place, right?
[00:20:20] Richard Ellis: And make sure that it's aligned to, you know, market imperatives and, and challenges and how you and your service or your company can help pivot, help companies pivot around those, achieve their objectives, right? All of that good stuff. But when you think about supporting these motions with messaging or positioning content, are, are there any kind of, you know, best practices or tips that you would, you would highlight?
[00:20:46] Jessica Fewless: And when you say messaging, are you referring to like the internal messaging or messaging out to your ICP?
[00:20:51] Richard Ellis: No, to the market. Right. To your ICP. So whether it's assets that go to support those campaigns or you know, webpages [00:21:00] or, you know,
[00:21:01] Jessica Fewless: yeah.
[00:21:01] Richard Ellis: EE. Even your outreach messaging content. Mm-hmm.
[00:21:05] Jessica Fewless: Um, as I said earlier, I think thing number one is once you have your ICP to have it segmented and do that deep research, right?
[00:21:13] Jessica Fewless: Because if you're just putting out. You know, generic platitudes. Once again, we, we, we, we, we work with SMB companies, small startups, and we work with Fortune 500 companies. If we just did one set of messaging, like it probably wouldn't speak to either. Right. Or it might speak then it
[00:21:32] Richard Ellis: just contributes to the noise.
[00:21:33] Richard Ellis: Right. That's out. Exactly.
[00:21:35] Jessica Fewless: Exactly. 'cause we're not talking specifically about their pain points. To your point, that's gonna cut through the noise. Get their attention, get them to start listening to you. Right. And then help move them through that, you know, from awareness, right? I say, you know, there's accounts in your ICP that are probably in the pre-awareness phase.
[00:21:52] Jessica Fewless: They don't even know they have a problem, right? So how do you get them realizing, oh, I've got a problem. Or, you know, there's a better, you know, better mouse [00:22:00] trap out there, or whatever it might be. You know, how do you get their attention? And then how do you walk them through that entire process from awareness to consideration to decision, right?
[00:22:09] Jessica Fewless: Um. The fundamentals are still the same here. It's the focus and rigor around them that are what's, what's changing.
[00:22:17] Richard Ellis: Yeah. And, and what you said about deep research, that can be both external research, but also internal research of your CRM data, right. And everything you have in house, which kind of then, you know, begs the question, you know, do you trust your data or do you have good, clean, reliable data that you can use to surface insights and
[00:22:37] Jessica Fewless: Yeah.
[00:22:37] Jessica Fewless: And
[00:22:38] Richard Ellis: conclusions to, to then run with, right.
[00:22:40] Jessica Fewless: Yes, and very few companies have that all sorted. And so, you know, as, as we're moving into this era of ai, I think that's a foundational thing. Everybody needs to like slow down to go fast, right? Mm-hmm. You gotta get your data in order because otherwise the AI is not smart enough to go [00:23:00] your data's wrong.
[00:23:01] Jessica Fewless: It doesn't know. It's saying, here's what I see in your data and here are the conclusions I can make. Right now, maybe somewhere down the the line, someday it'll be able to say, your data's messed up. Right,
[00:23:14] Richard Ellis: right.
[00:23:14] Jessica Fewless: Yeah. So it's gonna give you false positives. It's gonna give you bad direction. Um, yeah. If your CRM data's bad, building your ICP is gonna be a really hard process.
[00:23:28] Richard Ellis: Well, and I think that's one of the areas that, uh, CROs now and then, uh, even companies that don't have a CRO when you have the CMO and the and, and the CSO kind of coming together in partnership, realizing that. Uh, the, the data hygiene in CRM is no longer just a sales problem. Before it was viewed as, hey, we need to understand where our deals are, the quality of our pipeline, and if our forecast is gonna be accurate or not.
[00:23:54] Richard Ellis: Right? And that was kind of the extent of it. But now, if we're gonna be relying on this data for [00:24:00] intent triggers and, you know, new opportunities that we can tease out or create in our client installed base. Yeah. Right. We need to make sure that all of that's accurate. 100%. This is fascinating. Uh, I think we're already about at the end of our time.
[00:24:15] Richard Ellis: Let's just, let me just ask one final question and uh, 'cause you just have a tremendous amount of experience from the A BM days to just general strategic marketing. Is there any kind of final takeaways that you would. Leave our listeners with to, you know, just at the end of the day, keep these things in mind.
[00:24:33] Jessica Fewless: I think it's the, the fundamentals. Let's get back to fundamentals, right? Just because we're adding shiny new AI or any technology, right? I mean, honestly, over the course of, you know, the 2010s and 2020 so far, like people buy technology to solve problems instead of solving the problem and then layering on technology to do it better.
[00:24:55] Jessica Fewless: Hmm. And I think that is what I have seen. Once again, I mean, [00:25:00] I was at demand base in the height of the A BM craze and the A BM platform craze, right? It was my job to sell people on why they needed intent data and they needed, you know, a tool. But also I was, you know, teaching them on the fundamentals on, you know, we had an A BM certification, the fundamentals of A BM, right?
[00:25:19] Jessica Fewless: So we were trying to do both, but so many people tried to take the short. Shortcut and by the technology and thinking that by the, the technology, they'd be doing a BM. Right? And it's gonna be the same thing. We're seeing it with AI now. Oh, well, I'll just add AI to it. And you know, you still gotta have the strategy, you still gotta have the workflows, the processes, you know, those sorts of things in place.
[00:25:41] Jessica Fewless: The fundamentals. You need to know how to fundamentally do marketing. Right? I think that's,
[00:25:47] Richard Ellis: yeah. Yeah. So good. Just to remind us, fundamentals are still appropriate. You have to have those in place. The underlying process, a right strategy, and then you know that technology can then [00:26:00] amplify the good and not necessarily the bad.
[00:26:02] Jessica Fewless: Exactly.
[00:26:04] Richard Ellis: Well, uh, as we wrap up today, I always like to ask my guests if there's any other goodness not related to what we talked about today that Yeah. Uh, that you've experienced that you'd like to share with the audience.
[00:26:16] Jessica Fewless: Well, so when I, when I got that question from you, I was like, okay, I'm gonna think about this, and I'm gonna go a little oddball on this one, right?
[00:26:24] Jessica Fewless: Yes. So for, for most of us who work from home day in and day out, right, it's really hard to know when work ends. And your personal life begins, right? Because your computer's always there. Your office might be the door across from your bedroom, like, you know? And so it's like, how do you shut that off? And so, you know, once I started working from home regularly, I had to find something to shut off.
[00:26:49] Jessica Fewless: My work brain and, and have that formal separation. And so for me, um, it's actually been DIY Home Projects slash woodworking, which I found to [00:27:00] work in a couple of different ways. One. I'm excited at the end of my day to go do something different. I'm excited to go work with my hands instead of creating slide decks, right?
[00:27:08] Jessica Fewless: And it also requires me to completely shut off my business brain. 'cause I have to focus and I have to calculate measurements and I have to do all that type of stuff. 'cause if I do that wrong, my, you know, my dresser's gonna be. Diagonally, you know, you know, and or my four is gonna be crooked. And so, um, I have found that to be really helpful because it shuts off my work brain so that when I come back the next morning, I haven't just been, I come back with a fresh perspective.
[00:27:37] Jessica Fewless: Um, that's real good. And the challenges I've been fo focused on.
[00:27:41] Richard Ellis: Yeah. Such a good example to share and, and even for those of us that may not be woodworkers, I think just the idea of thinking about what, what's something that, that can be kind of, that switch to say, Hey, work mode is off. Now, you know, I'm onto something different and, and just clear the brain.
[00:27:59] Richard Ellis: That's really smart. [00:28:00] Good stuff. Yeah. Thanks. Well, thank you again for, uh, spending some time with us today. Absolutely. Look forward to talking to you again. If you're willing on, on another topic,
[00:28:10] Jessica Fewless: I'm here for it. Richard, thanks so much. Some goodness. A creation of revenue innovations. Visit us. At revenue innovations.com and subscribe to our newsletter.
