SG EP 25 enhanced
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Richard Ellis: [00:00:00] In 2025, more than half of Fortune 500 companies report challenges sustaining their purpose initiatives amid rising backlash. Public boycotts, political controversies and investor skepticism are forcing leaders to ask whether their commitments are authentic or simply Cosmetic. Research shows that while 79% of business leaders believe purpose is critical, only 25% say their company's efforts are fully integrated into strategy.
Richard Ellis: As the scrutiny intensifies, leaders must learn to separate signal from substance to avoid accusations of purpose washing. Today we explore a new framework for navigating corporate purpose, helping organizations decide when to press forward, pivot, or pull back welcome to some goodness where we engage seasoned business leaders and experts to share practical guidance and tips to help new and future C-level leaders maximize their impact.
Richard Ellis: My [00:01:00] guest today is Dr. Chris Blocker, professor of marketing and Dean's distinguished research fellow. At Colorado State University, Chris is a leading scholar whose work bridges business and society focusing on how organizations create meaningful value for stakeholders. He recently co-authored a Harvard Business Review article Are Your Company's Purpose Initiatives Working, offering Leaders a Clear framework to evaluate their Purpose Strategies in Today's Polarized Landscape.
Richard Ellis: Well, Chris, welcome.
Chris Blocker: Thanks, Richard. Great to be here.
Richard Ellis: So I love this idea of purpose. So let's just kind of dive right in. Uh, one of the things that you've said is that purpose has to go beyond the old corporate mission statement. And, and, and I admit that over the years, you know, you look at vision and mission, you're like, what's really the value or the purpose of those?
Richard Ellis: Right? So gimme your perspective on purpose.
Chris Blocker: Yeah, a absolutely, and I think you, you named it it for years. It's just been kind of the [00:02:00] eye roll. It's a slide you talk about here's, here's who we are. Um, in, in recent years, um, there's been this resurgence around purpose and we're also at an interesting moment today where it's a lot trickier to talk about who we are and what we value.
Chris Blocker: Um, for a long time, I, I think in the last five to 10 years, there was a lot more slack and buffer for companies to say, you know, here's what we value, here's what we're going into. Um, but lately, if, uh, if you're not doing that well, then it can, they can, it can really backfire. And so you have to be pretty careful about how you talk about purpose these days, um, as compared to a few years ago.
Richard Ellis: And there's a few dimensions of purpose, right? There's the, the corporate, you know, kind of perspective or dimension. What's the purpose of the company, you know, and, and that leads into kind of your culture, but then taking it down to, you know, the individual's purpose. And so I, I wanna get into all of that.
Richard Ellis: Uh, during our call today, but, [00:03:00] uh, one of the things that I noticed from, I think it was your Harvard Business Review article that you pointed out, four archetypes, is that right? Uh, I'd love to dig into kind of those, uh, 'cause I thought it was really interesting how you broke those up.
Chris Blocker: Yeah, that's right. So, uh, I did some research with some colleagues and it started in COVID and, you know, three or four years really.
Chris Blocker: Digging in with, uh, C-level leaders in terms of how they think about purpose. Is this relevant? Is it not? And, and what we found over the years is that organizations often fit into one of four types. You can think about two dimensions. How much do we talk about purpose? That would be our signal. And then how much are we doing, right?
Chris Blocker: The operational realities that would be the substance or substantial investments. And so you can, you can kind of break it out into a two by two, and that's where a lot of organizations sit today is in one of those buckets.
Richard Ellis: So explain a little bit about the, the difference between those two and practical terms [00:04:00] for an organization or a leader that's wants to, you know, amplify or clarify purpose.
Chris Blocker: Yeah, absolutely. There's. There's, there's two, two of those buckets that I would say are on the riskier side. Okay. And you can think about, I like to think about risk in two ways. One is sinking the boat and the other is missing the boat. I like
Richard Ellis: that.
Chris Blocker: Yeah. So, uh, probably the worst category to be in. Is if you're trying to signal lots of purpose through brand communications, but you're actually not doing anything, and this would be the category where lots of companies would say, you're just washing, you're putting this thin veneer, this surface.
Chris Blocker: Level purpose over products, brands, but you're, you're actually not really authentically that kind of company and Right. That's where you get lots of, lots of backlash and attacks and sorrys in the press. Um, and so, you know, many companies and, and you know, some of them with good intentions pushed into that [00:05:00] category because they saw competitors doing it and they're like, you know, we want, we wanna play in that market as well.
Chris Blocker: There's opportunity. And so that would be the one category where you're kind of, you know, signaling a lot more than you can deliver. Hmm. Um, the second category would be one that historically just aligns with traditional Milton Friedman Eco economics that says, Hey, no, a business is about maximizing profit.
Chris Blocker: Mm-hmm. Um, and I would say roughly one in six. Leaders might put themselves in that category today. That's what the research shows. But even Peter Drucker back in the 1970s said, no, it's not just about solely maximizing profit. There's bigger opportunities. There's there's ways to convert social needs profitably into business solutions.
Chris Blocker: So, so the, that would be the profit centric category. Okay. And in that category, many, many leaders feel great about that, but it might be one where you're missing, you're missing the boat. In terms of energizing a [00:06:00] young generation, retaining them, um, seeing opportunities that, that are there in the marketplace to go beyond just traditional, you know, product excellence, uh, that, that sort of, that sort of path.
Chris Blocker: So, uh, those are the first two on the left side, the profit masking and the profit centric. Um. You know, on that, that left hand side. Does that make sense?
Richard Ellis: It does. It does. And so, um, and, and does your research reveal that it, because it seems, uh, and I don't know if this is just, you know, the, the people I'm around or the, the client teams I'm around, but it seems like there's the, this movement for, you know, a hunger for purpose or seeking more purpose than just kind of doing your job, uh, you know, being effective, you know, in your role.
Richard Ellis: What, what has your research kind of revealed about that trend?
Chris Blocker: Yeah, I think, you know, all of us are probably familiar with like Maslow's hierarchy, right? Yeah. Over like a hundred years. Like when we get better at stuff, [00:07:00] we generally feel safe. We're, you know, we're, we're buying, you know, products that are reliable and durable that have lots of features, and so over time.
Chris Blocker: The bar raises in terms of what we want and you know, whether that is employees wanting to come to work and feeling like this is more than just a paycheck. Right. Or when we, when we go to the store, you know, wanting to level up in terms of find products that connect with who we are, our own values, our lifestyle.
Chris Blocker: Mm-hmm. And so there has been this push over several decades, especially with younger generations. To, um, embrace more purpose. You know, what, what, how can this be a grander story than just the everyday humdrum, you know, uh, marketplace interactions.
Richard Ellis: I love it. And so I want to get into what does that practically mean for businesses and leaders today?
Richard Ellis: But before we do that, I just wanted to call out, I love that your, your phrase of signal or, or your contrast of signal versus [00:08:00] substance. Right. And I think one of the things that you were pointing out is, you know, when. When there's a gap there or misalignment there, there's kind of lack of authenticity, uh, you know, in your company or your culture.
Richard Ellis: And, and that can, you know, that can cause real challenges to, you know, those that are seeking more purpose, more fulfillment, uh, in their jobs, et cetera. Is, am I kind of reading into that, right?
Chris Blocker: That's right. And the, and the tricky part is there really has to be an alignment between three things. The first is your why.
Chris Blocker: The second is the who and the last one is the what. The why is really, do you have, you know, does your top management team have clarity on what, why are we in business? What are we, what are we supposed to accomplish? And this would align more with traditional, like what's our mission, our values, you know, our vision for the future.
Chris Blocker: Um, and, and in many cases, you know, this, this involves sort of a top management [00:09:00] team gaining clarity. Over, over who we are and what we can be. Um, the who part is really does your entire organization identify with this? And if you skip over that part, bad things happen. Right? Right. Where you get, um, internal backlash from employees, you get customers saying like, yeah, I don't believe you.
Chris Blocker: Uh, and that, that third part, the what is really your operational strategies. Have you gone beyond saying, Hey, we donate to this cause or We like that and there's nothing wrong with that. But if it's not embedded in your operational realities, um, your sales team isn't talking about it, it's not, um, it's not structured into the way you measure things, then it's really just lip service for the most part.
Chris Blocker: Right? And so you have to have those, those, the why, the who and the what, really aligned. And you can kind of think about some organizations if, if you have the, the why and the what. But you lack the who, then there's, there's gonna be internal backlash. If you lack [00:10:00] the, uh, the, the, the, the what part you might have.
Chris Blocker: It's, these are kinda like lots of nonprofits where you have, um, a, a really strongly identified group of people, but you lack sort of the acumen and the everyday business. Um. Disciplines. Yeah. To make it, make it a reality. So you really have to align on, on those three. And we, we saw lots in our, um, in our research showing that some companies had one or two right, but not all three.
Richard Ellis: Got it. Got it. Well, I think that's a helpful framework that, you know, anybody could kind of just do a little bit of a self-assessment, you know? And, uh, I like what you were saying about, you know, I, is it embedded in, in the culture? I mean, are people talking about it? Is this part of conversation or is it just something on your website or a slide or a poster on the corporate, you know, wall.
Richard Ellis: That's right. Um, you did mention something about, you know what, um. You know, your customers may not believe you or something so that, you know, coming into this conversation, I was thinking, you know, more about [00:11:00] internally, but let's, let's just pause a little bit here and talk externally. So, how does purpose, you know, translate to the commercial side of business and, you know, external customers and prospects?
Chris Blocker: Yeah. The, the, the exciting part is that if you do it right. There's a lot of research that shows that the number of people who prefer brands that are purpose-driven, I mean, just go to the grocery store and turn, turn around Most labels, right? We do prefer organizations that we admire that line up with who we are.
Chris Blocker: Um, so if you do it well, there's, there's a, there's great opportunities for growing markets. Um, people are even willing to pay a premium, right? Okay. 'cause many of, many purpose driven products, they cost more. They have, you know, higher ingredients. The challenge though is that there's been so many failures over the years where companies have tripped over themselves in not doing the work, but saying it.
Chris Blocker: And so there's, there's, there's a lot of caution and risk around those. Um, and [00:12:00] I, again, I think even five, 10 years ago, we had a lot more slack for this one. One story that I think most people have forgotten is back in 2015 when Howard Schultz of Starbucks said. Okay, baristas. We're all going to have conversations about racial inequality, and you're gonna write the words race together on each and every cup.
Chris Blocker: And of course, that blew up in a second. It was made fun of, you know, in the, the late night shows. But honestly, like after a news cycle or two, most people forgot about it, right? But today you cannot do that, right? You don't. You do not have that slack and buffer today for those kinds of mistakes. There's been too many fumbles.
Chris Blocker: By companies that mean well perhaps, but, um, but just poorly execute. And so there's, there's a thin margin for success. So to answer your question, to really have success externally today, you almost have to move into this quadrant that I would call transitional purpose, where you're, you're actually making changes [00:13:00] to your, your operations, to your products, to your sales team, you know, the way that they're, um, their messaging.
Chris Blocker: But you're not talking about it externally a lot. And customers almost have to find out themselves like, oh
Announcer: wow,
Chris Blocker: you guys are doing this amazing thing. I didn't know about this. That, that lines up with who we are. Right? And so, so you almost have to, um, to be really humble about it. Or some would call hush, you know, your, your signaling, right?
Chris Blocker: And let customers find out, uh, and not, um, not blare it through the, the, the megaphone.
Richard Ellis: Because if it, if it's too overt, it, it can come across as, you know, shallow or inauthentic or, you know, lip service like you were saying.
Chris Blocker: That's
Richard Ellis: right.
Chris Blocker: That's right. The other thing we're seeing is that organizations that slow down and have a pa more patient time horizon, they're linking up with third party, whether they be think tanks or NGOs or certifications or institutions.
Chris Blocker: That can lend their, not only their [00:14:00] credibility, but their expertise to say, Hey, here's the right way to do this. You know, jump don't, don't say that when you're not actually there yet. Right. And so they're, they're, they're slowing down a bit and, um, and retooling the way that they, they, they do purpose.
Richard Ellis: Got it.
Richard Ellis: Got it. All right. We've got, we've got some practical tips out there, right? We've got, you gotta match signaling with the substance. That's right. You, you, you've got a framework of the the why and the who and the what, and make sure that you get all three of those boxes checked right. In a compelling and authentic way.
Richard Ellis: Uh, let's take it to this next level of just kinda leadership, uh, internally in an organization. And then we may even go kind of one click. Further into just sales specifically, but, um, you know, what does it look like for leaders, uh, to coach for purpose, you know, versus just to, you know, inspect what you expect and coaching or driving discipline for process and things like that.
Chris Blocker: Richard, it's, it's a great question. [00:15:00] Leaders obviously are, um, you know, trust is, is a, is a premium these days. Mm-hmm. And so leaders have to, to show up not just competent people, but also the kind of people that I wanna follow. Right. And so, um, a, a younger generation is looking to leaders to say, okay, who are we really?
Chris Blocker: Mm-hmm. Who are, who are you? Can I can, I believe you know, that we are who we say we are. Um, and so there, I think. There's, there's an entire generation that is looking for leaders to, to tell credible stories mm-hmm. About the organization, about who we can be, about how we can create greater impact beyond simply, you know, growing and, uh, and succeeding from financially.
Chris Blocker: Right. And so, so it's up to leaders to themselves first, gain clarity about. Who we are, what we stand for, uh, what we're willing to invest in over a longer period of time, the [00:16:00] kinds of challenges that we care about. Um, you know, one of, one of the biggest challenges for leaders is that it's easy to get overwhelmed with 27 different challenges causes, and which of those are profitable, which are not.
Chris Blocker: Absolutely. And yeah. And so simplifying, right, is probably one of the first steps is just to gain clarity about what, what it is that you prioritize. And some of this means going back to the origins of the organization or you as a leader to say, why did we start this to begin with,
Richard Ellis: right?
Chris Blocker: Uh, what, what are we, what are we passionate about that we can, um, we can actually invest in and be profitable?
Chris Blocker: As a business. Well,
Richard Ellis: yes, and, and you know, it's, it's taking it from, hey, we sell this solution, uh, or this product into these industries to really helping the reps connect to something bigger, right? Uh, why are we doing that and what's the impact on other people, other companies, other communities, et cetera.
Richard Ellis: That's right. [00:17:00] Let me ask you, uh, I, I had one, one of my tech clients sold, you know, some great, you know, uh, software solution into the medical community, community. Um, you know, they, they were able to basically demonstrate that because of, uh, their products capabilities, ultimately it could save lives, right?
Richard Ellis: And, and you know, that's pretty compelling. You know, purpose is, Hey, we're out there saving. Like, is that too, is that like two grandiose who's like, oh, okay. Yeah. World hunger, or is that, is that a good example of kind of what we're looking for to connect to something bigger?
Chris Blocker: Yeah, I, I think, I think it's really helpful because in most cases what it means is just kinda laddering up from like immediate outcomes to, we won the deal, you know, it was a good price.
Chris Blocker: You know, we all kind of moved forward to, what does that mean? For downstream users and customers. And so I think the example you use about, well, okay, let me think about for a second. What does this software do? Mm-hmm. [00:18:00] You know, it helps people make decisions to allocate resources and that might actually help people live healthier lives mm-hmm.
Chris Blocker: Flourish, um, you know, be able to, uh, take care of their families right. In ways that they may not have. And so, uh, yeah, this is all about just taking a moment and saying, how does the work that I do. Go beyond, beyond just, you know, um, my day-to-day paycheck. Mm-hmm. How does it, how does it go beyond simply meeting our financial goals as, as a company?
Chris Blocker: And I think in most cases you can find those links to something bigger. Um, it'll probably be harder for some organizations if you say, okay, we sell industrial glue. You know, like in those cases it may be more. Leaning into who we are as a company, our capabilities, what we value, or even in some cases, uh, you know, aligning yourself with the values of your clients.
Chris Blocker: Right? You know, if that, if that [00:19:00] product goes into an elevator, right? That that helps, you know, helps people go up and down, you know, like you're, you're helping build out cities, right? And you're helping, you know, build community, right? So there's, there's larger stories. Without getting too, you know, we're gonna solve world hunger.
Richard Ellis: Right, right. I like that. I think that's really helpful. Um, and so when you think about, you know, kind of connecting those dots and, and connecting to a higher purpose or, uh, you know, something bigger than, uh, than maybe you, you know, intuitively think, is this something that you actually measure in an organization?
Richard Ellis: I mean, we're all always about measuring, you know. Account expansion and revenue attainment and all of that good stuff. Um, what, what's your, your thought on, you know, kind of the, the traditional measuring what matters when it pertains?
Chris Blocker: Absolutely. I think there's a number of ways to do that. I'll, I'll start a little bit broader because I do think we're at a moment, especially in the sales discipline where, [00:20:00] you know, you have sellers remote.
Chris Blocker: Most of their calls are virtual. Yeah. Uh, you know, especially since COVID, there's higher, higher levels of stress, especially among younger and earlier sellers. And so there's, I think, like $2 billion a year going into workplace wellbeing to try to help, you know, address some of these issues. Wow. And so right in the heart of that, there's been some, some wonderful research.
Chris Blocker: Valerie Goode at the University of Arkansas and a number of her colleagues have done some research tracking. Salesperson wellbeing as well as looking at what does it look like when a seller has a sense of purpose? Okay. Beyond just my paycheck. And in some of the research, it's really compelling. That shows that, you know when, when a seller can say, you know something, my work goes to something beyond just my paycheck.
Chris Blocker: It serves some greater good. It's, it impacts other people's lives. What you find is that they're more intrinsically motivated, you know, beyond just the paycheck.
Richard Ellis: Mm-hmm. Right? [00:21:00] That
Chris Blocker: drives more calls, more adaptive selling and leads to better performance. Like literally period over period, across several years.
Chris Blocker: Multiple replication studies that show there's kind of this goodness chain of effects where, you know, the comp plan keeps the lights on, but purpose turns the lights up. Oh, I love that in terms really motivating sellers. And so, um, so you asked about measurement. Um, you know, organizations of course we're always over surveyed and we have, you know, too many questions coming at us.
Chris Blocker: And so this could happen in a, in, in one-to-one meetings between leaders and, and their team. But you also can measure some of these things. There's like a, a five item measure for salesperson sense of purpose. Okay? That, um, that is in, in that paper, in that research it's published. That is, is an easy scale, you know, to pick out one or two questions to just say, you know, on a quarter by quarter basis, how, how are you feeling about your job?
Chris Blocker: You know, where's your, um, [00:22:00] where's your level of purpose, you know, this, this quarter. And if, and if it's not there. I think that's an invitation for a conversation on, you know, tell me, you know, how are you doing generally, but also are there ways that we can connect, you know, and, and, and bring sort of, um, you know, work, work life balance into the picture and talk about how can we connect what you do for a large part of your day to who you are to your clients so that you feel a broader sense of contribution.
Chris Blocker: I like that. There's a couple ways to do that.
Richard Ellis: Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I think most organizations do have some kind of a process, whether formal or informal of checking in on their employees. But I think, you know, this idea of being more intentional about checking in on purpose and fulfillment and, you know.
Richard Ellis: Kind of some of those ideas. And certainly we could grab from your, uh, your research that, uh, that scale or, or, or the, the rubric, if you will, to give companies [00:23:00] and leaders some ideas on, hey, you might want to check into those. So, um, we're kind of about, at the end of our time, um, we, we've talked a lot about, you know, why should we care about purpose and a new way to think about purpose, which is awesome.
Richard Ellis: Um, you, you, you mentioned some practical ways of just kind of. Checking in to see, you know, are there some gaps, but, uh, any other kind of practical tips for, you know, listeners out there that are like, man, we need to lean into this a little bit more. It's been nothing but something on our website, um, in terms of what to do next, uh, or just some practical guidance.
Chris Blocker: Yeah. To, to me, I, I, I don't, I think you're missing a, a significant opportunity. To not bake in some elements of purpose, especially early on during onboarding, during, during annual reviews just to check in. Um, and of course, you know, leaning into your colleagues in, in HR who maybe are measuring broader things about, you know, hey, are people isolated?
Chris Blocker: Are they feeling connected? [00:24:00] Are they identified with the organization? And so, you know, picking picking one or two areas where you say, okay, I'm gonna invest in, in this checkpoint and I'm gonna track it. And, and then I'm gonna have some conversations about it along the way. And maybe to me, I think engaging some of your, your veteran people that have been around mm-hmm.
Chris Blocker: For a while and have really rich stories, you know, with clients like you mentioned earlier about, you know, software saving lives. Like, like stories like that that, um, that a younger generation can grab onto and say, gosh, I, I can see myself walking that same road, or I'm, that makes me proud to work here as well.
Chris Blocker: And so I think, um, you know, just aligning on like what are our values? Where do we need to move the needle? Measuring something, whether that is using a simple two, three item, you know, question, um, scale in, in an annual survey or in a one-to-one meeting just to, to, to take stock and, and help help [00:25:00] sellers move forward.
Chris Blocker: I think on the, on the practice side, that there could be a skill where sellers learn to connect. In a more compelling way with their clients, right? Hmm. We always do the research on like, here, here's who Richard is. Here's his job, here's maybe what he cares about. I've looked at his LinkedIn, but the, the tools that we have available today to figure out, oh, what does this organization actually care about?
Chris Blocker: What are they, what are they investing in? Where is their purpose? And then figuring out how can I tailor. Who we are as a company, the solutions we provide and help them accomplish that purpose. You know, that that's a, I think that's a huge opportunity that many sellers leave on the table. Right. They go straight to the deal and they forget about this bigger picture.
Chris Blocker: That honestly makes you more resilient to price negotiations and other things because you've connected at that level.
Richard Ellis: Sure, sure. No, those are a lot of great ideas. Uh, and I think the, the most important is just to do something right. Pick, just get started. Right. Lean into it [00:26:00] and, and to your point. You know, think about an upcoming, you know, performance review or maybe a QBR or a team meeting you have with your team and, and just say, Hey, I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to, uh, to dig into purpose a little bit and, and go from there.
Chris Blocker: That's right. Share sharing stories, sharing your own purpose, and then inviting others to share theirs, I think is a great start.
Richard Ellis: That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, uh, unfortunately we are out of time and so, uh, you've listened to us before and so, you know, I love to, uh, share all kinds of goodness. Yeah.
Richard Ellis: And so in closing, what's something, you know, not related to purpose, just, uh, in, in your life that's brought you a little goodness lately that you'd like to share?
Chris Blocker: Yeah, the, the, I, I love this part of the show, Richard. So, uh, recently, you know, as part of my job as a faculty member, we had this massive job fair, and, and I'm talking.
Chris Blocker: 70 employers, 783 young people. Wow. And I vol. I, I haven't been to a, to a job fair in 30 years and I [00:27:00] volunteered to help, you know, welcome the employers, kind of like, you know, in this meet and greet space. And, and I just thought, okay, you know, whatever, I'll go to this, I'll go to this job fair for a minute.
Chris Blocker: And honestly just the energy in that room. We've been talking about young people a lot. Um, it renewed my faith in the next generation. You see tons of people, you know, dressed to the nines with their, their crisp resumes, you know, walking around, lots of bouncing in the room going on, and uh, and it was just an amazing event.
Chris Blocker: I mean, just to see the, oh, phenomenal employers. All over the students and, and vice versa. I think we hear so much these days about young people lost in social media or, you know, maybe unmotivated or, or worried, but this was not, that. This was, um, an incredible example of, of young people sort of stepping into their, their next season.
Chris Blocker: And so yeah, it was, it was some goodness to me just to be reminded of that.
Richard Ellis: Well, that's outstanding. I love that. Uh, that just gives me some joy right there. So I love to hear that and what [00:28:00] a great way to end our episode today. So thank you again for your time and for being with us.
Chris Blocker: Thanks, Richard. Great to be with you.
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